The Wisdom of Anger Part II - Emotion Series #4

Emotion Series

October 29, 2021
In last week’s episode on anger, we discussed some of the theoretical ways that this emotion impacts our relationships, families and society. In this second episode, we will follow up on what we learned last week by taking a deeper look into how repressed anger might show up and flow through us as individuals.

Episode intro:

If you are following the mind, it’s very hard to allow anger to move cleanly. Whether your story is, they are absolutely wrong and they deserve this, or your story is, no, they deserve compassion. Any kind of thick story around it is going to really make the anger have a hard time coming out in a clean way.

Welcome to the Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease.

My name is Brett Kistler. I am an adventurer, entrepreneur and a self exploration enthusiast.  I am here with my co-host, Joe Hudson. Joe is a business coach who has  spent decades working with some of the world´s top executives and teams developing a unique model of human patterns that underpin how we operate with ourselves, each other and the world. A good entry point into this model is a mindset called VIEW, vulnerability, impartiality, empathy and wonder.  

Through understanding and cultivation we learn to easefully drop into the VIEW state of mind, deepening self awareness and increasing our connection with the world around us. To learn more about this podcast or courses, visit

Brett: All right, how are we doing today, Joe?

Joe: I’m good. I’m really looking forward to the weekend. It’s been a lot.

Brett: It’s been a lot this week. A while back we did an episode on anger, and that was actually several months ago that we recorded it. Now we are doing a second one on anger, and it is a really interesting time for me to do it, because in AoA we are kind of in middle to late AoA. After that Feel over Figure week, a lot of stuff started coming up in some of the groups and some of the partners, even among us in some of our circles. There is just so much coming up around anger, repressed anger, sideways anger, projections of anger, projections of repressed anger, anger at the anger, shame spirals. All of these things are happening. It is all beautiful and juicy. Many of us are still in it to some extent. I definitely am.

This is something I really want to come back and do another episode on anger to follow up on the previous one that we recorded, which will have been released just before this, by the time this comes out.

Joe: What I notice in the conversations happening in circle is a large portion of it is around the technical part of anger. I think the last podcast we did. I just listened to it knowing we wanted to do anger again. The last podcast again we did was just more on the theoretical, and this feels like what I am seeing everybody talk about on circle is about the technicalities of anger. To me, that feels like a really cool place to talk about it, what’s going on actually inside of a single person around anger. That’s exciting to me.

Brett: What are some of the symptoms you see of these forms of anger?

Joe: There are three ways it goes. There is the anger in words, so that’s the self-abusive talk. There’s the anger sideways, which is passive aggression. I am angry, but I am not allowed to be angry, so I do a whole bunch of things. That particular thing is really difficult for people to see they are doing it when they are doing it. Passive aggressive, a lot of people don’t think they are being passive aggressive when they are, until they see it. It is subtle until they see it.

The way I look at it, the other kind of repressed anger is getting angry at somebody. It is rah, rah, rah. That is repressed anger. That is anger not coming out clearly either. If I think about anger as like a tube or a wire, and it is like: Is that wire open or is that wire constricted? If it is twisted one way, it is like, “I’m not angry. I’m not angry.”, and if it is twisted another way, it is like, “Nice dress.” If it is twisted another way, it is like, “Fuck you.” I think all of those are forms of repressed anger.

On a symptomatic level, this looks like depression. Oftentimes, one of the quickest ways to help people with low level dystonia depression is to allow them to move their anger. Symptoms are abusive self-talk, people having a hard time feeling determination, co-dependence, passive aggression, blaming other people for your emotional experience. That’s a form of passive aggression. Being late or not taking out the dress or doing something that you know is going to get the other person angry, that level of passive aggression, the subtle undermining that happens, the propensity to freeze in your own head and then yelling at people, taking your anger out on people. That’s all forms of what I would call repression of the energy. It’s kinking the hose in one way or another.

Brett: It’s interesting. The ones you mentioned about being co-dependent with or guilting people. Those are interesting to me. Those are ones I’ve experienced a lot in my life and sometimes I’ve relived that pattern a little bit. It doesn’t feel like anger. It is like, look what you have done there with your anger. Now we are all sad, because the anger happened.

Joe: Yeah. Psychology in general and our society in general, especially more in the left side of the political spectrum, anger itself is the bad guy. It’s not okay to be angry at somebody, but it’s okay to be sad at them. It’s not even recognized that someone is being sad at somebody. When you are being sad at somebody, in a weird way, that is passive aggression. It’s a fascinating thing. Once you see it, it’s like holy crap, it’s happening all over, these forms of passive aggression.

But the person who is doing it feels stuck. They feel oppressed. They don’t always see that they are doing it. Guilting somebody is another great example of passive aggression.

Brett: Continuing on to some of these reasons for repressed anger, how do these patterns end up getting installed in us?

Joe: Three basic general ways it happens. One of them is, you had an experience of somebody who was always angry as a child, a mom, dad, or a teacher, and that anger was at you. It was manipulative. It was trying to change you. Then that became completely unsafe, and so you vowed to yourself I will never do that to other people again. It could be a sibling or a caretaker, but where that anger was so destructive that you were like yeah, I’m not doing that. That’s one way we have repressed it.

There is another way that anger was just never allowed in the house, or whenever anger happened in the house, it was always at people. That comes out. That’s the form of repression that comes out. You either got love removed from you if you were angry, because it was just not allowed, or you got attention by having the anger that was like ‘grr’. That got you the engagement and love as a kid that you wanted.

Brett: It worked in a way.

Joe: Exactly. That was my childhood. I got the most engagement from my family when I was angry. For somebody in that side of things like I was, if you are angry at someone, you are like ah, ah, and they are like freeze or checkout. You are like you are abandoning me. “Why are you abandoning me?” The other person on the other side of it is like, “Why are you abandoning me by attacking me? I have to go make myself safe.” Both of them feel trapped. Both of them feel abandoned. It’s just which one you learned.

The last thing is you were rejected and punished if you got angry. If you got angry in your house, it was like, you know. This happens at such a young age, temper tantrums, not allowing your kid to have that full out. That’s how it happens. Basically, you get taught to repress it in one of the ways.

Brett: Something that is interesting about this is there seems to be so many ways, especially for this particular emotion, to be repressed. When people evolve different stripes of anger, suppression start to try to release anger– What are some of the things that happen in the mind that just subtly block it, before they can even become aware of it?

Joe: Let’s say I am angry at you. I’m not getting angry at you, because we do not suggest getting angry at anybody, because that’s control, that’s manipulation. I go off. I get angry. My mind is going to start saying things like Brett’s point of view, it’s totally reasonable to see it his way. That’s one of the ways it does it.

Brett: Mine does it.

Joe: Which is true. I am not saying that’s not true, by the way, but it is an order of operations thing. If you do that first, you are not going to get through the anger, which is the same thing as the second, compassion. I should be compassionate. No, you are angry. Be angry, and then the compassion will naturally come out of that if the anger moves in a healthy, attuned way. You will start judging your anger release. You will say that’s bad, especially people who have moral or religious things where they are like, these are the good emotions and these are the bad emotions. I am supposed to be happy. I’m not allowed to be angry. Your brain will do that.

The other thing that happens is, you will hear your brain telling yourself you are ignorant. If you have lost control and you are angry, you are ignorant. That’s the way it works if it is repressed as it is not coming out, but if it is coming out kinked or passive aggressive, the way the brain is talking to you is that you believe that you are stuck. You believe that you are alone in it. That’s how the brain convinces you to repress it in that way, because being stuck just means you don’t want imagined consequences. I am stuck, because I can’t tell my wife that she is a crappy cook, because then she will get mad at me. What’s really true is, I don’t want my wife to get mad at me, not that I am stuck.

That’s the way the mind works to repress it that way. It believes the story.

Brett: That seems to happen interpersonally. You can have, in a partnership, that one person’s voice in the head is suppressing the other person’s anger. It crosses the boundary there. I am speaking from experience there, in my life.

Joe: Totally. We got to see that with the guy talking about the anger to his parents today. One person feels oppressed by the anger that’s coming out, rah, rah, rah. One person in the relationship is like rah, that form of repressed anger makes somebody else feel oppressed. The other person’s form of repressed anger, which is I am out of here, freeze, then that makes this person feel abandoned. They both feel stuck, and they are both angry. Nobody is actually just allowing that free flow of anger to happen.

Brett: We were just talking about ways the free flow of anger can be resisted in our consciousness before we are even aware of it. There are other ways it can be resisted in the body, maybe recognizing there is anger, or not, but it is coming through somehow into our actions, into our muscle tension. What are some of those resistances that might come up in that next layer?

Joe: Let’s say you got abused as a kid for any time you were angry. Let’s say you had a brother who was a bully. Every time you got angry, you just got smashed. Then you are going to have fear. I’ve seen this. I’ve seen people release their anger for the first time, and then as soon as we have done it. We watch it in slow motion. It is so cool. They go aah, and then as they pull away and realize they got angry, their eyes widen. They are totally frightened.

The body will have fear that happens and that says it is completely unsafe. It is very scared of being rejected. That’s another thing. It will feel rejected. A lot of times the body will be actually scared of the freedom that gets felt after anger, the empowerment and the freedom and the less rigidity in holding. The body is, I wouldn’t even say scared. The body is used to something. It is used to holding in a certain way, and to ask it to unhold, it is going to go through the process of unholding that stuff. That’s going to come up in the form of fear that you will be lost, fear of losing some of the rigidity. That’s how it is going to work.

Brett: That’s interesting. Scared there will be attacks, so the anger will be expressed through a physical protection holding.

Joe: In a weird way, every time there is anger, the overwhelm is an overwhelming of some other, like we talked about in that other podcast. There is this deep care, but there is also some fear. There is also hurt. There is a lot of stuff happening underneath it.

Brett: I’m interested in the one you talked about being scared of the freedom it will bring. If you are afraid of your anger, and you are living in the story that other people’s anger is causing you a problem or that your anger is causing a problem, and you are in a shame spiral. There’s a way that it’s easier to feel, than to feel the power of, if my anger actually moved through me cleanly, things would change around me. Maybe I don’t feel like I trust myself or the world to integrate those changes in a way that is good. The effects that come out from my determination are going to hurt people, and I am not going to want that to have happened.

Joe: Right. That’s what your mind is going to be saying. It’s very similar to your mind saying you should be compassionate. Jumping into the future, not paying attention to the present, and saying this is how I think it should be. This is how I think it is going to go instead of trusting the emotion. That’s the whole thing. The essential piece is that if you are following the mind, it is very hard to allow anger to move. It’s really hard to allow anger to move cleanly.

Whether your story is, they are absolutely wrong and they deserve this, or your story is, no, they deserve compassion, either one of those stories, any kind of thick story around it is really going to make the anger have a hard time coming out in a clean way.

Brett: It will have to be funneled through one of those stories, and then it becomes compressed into a sharp water cannon.

Joe: Including the story that I have to figure out how to get angry and that I should get angry. It is like overthinking going to the bathroom. It is literally like that. If you start thinking about it, it is going to get in the way of it moving in a clean, efficient way.

Brett: How can releasing anger go wrong? Once we have gotten through each of these steps, you are recognizing consciously, you are now recognizing it in your body, your body’s tension is allowing it through, and then you release it, what goes wrong there?

Joe: Again, depending on the way that it is kinked, if it is kinked in one way. It usually goes into either the internal or the passive aggressive, then you are going to go into collapse, particularly the passive aggressive. You are going to go into a collapse. You will start the anger. We will start going, and then you will go, ‘uh.’ Literally, when we are doing this with people in person, you will see them collapse into it. That’s one thing that happens.

The other thing that happens, if they fully believe the story, if they fully buy into it they have a reason to be angry, blah, blah, blah, then they become unregulated. They actually lose control. When people in our society say that person was angry, they are usually talking about a person who has become dysregulated. They are out of their body. They are out of their experience. They are saying things they don’t want to say, which is just another form of repressed anger.

Then, the other thing that happens is people recreate the shame. They will get angry in such a way that destroys something. They will get angry at somebody. They will get angry in a way that hurts themselves. They will do that, so they can then prove to themselves anger isn’t good. Anger isn’t a good thing. It’s hurting people.

When people move the anger, those are the things that will happen often. They will go into collapse. They will go into dysregulation, or they will recreate their shame. That’s where anger can go wrong.

Brett: It sounds like those are actually kind of stages, collapse first. You have anger. You are going to cut the anger off. Let’s not cause problems.

Joe: I’m talking about something different. We are saying somebody is moving their anger. We are not saying they are cutting it off. Cutting it off is like, I’m not angry. I’m talking about literally their back bends. Shame hits them.

Brett: Maybe stages wasn’t the term for it, but I still see a progression here. The first times you might move some anger that’s been held for a long time, it will come out a little bit and you will collapse. You will feel it somewhat. The anger will come out and there will be a collapse. Let’s back the train up. Let’s undo that.

Then another way it comes out is, maybe more of the anger comes out, and it is unregulated and a mess. If you do that enough, you will end up in a situation where maybe you have recreated the shame.

Joe: I would say it is not quite that way. I would say it is more of, if you are the person doing more self-abusive stuff, you are more likely to go into collapse. If you are the person who took it out on people a lot, then you are more likely to get into the unregulated side of it. If you are somebody who has a lot of shame around their anger, then you are going to recreate the shame around the anger. You could do one or all of those things. It might be a progression for some, like you are pointing out, and for other people it might be the exact reverse progression. For some people, it might only be one thing they do.

Brett: What does somebody do about each of these? If you are lucky enough to catch this happen in yourself.

Joe: The dysregulation one is the most interesting to me, because it is the one that our society is most scared of is somebody getting angry and actually losing control. I think deep down the fear that we almost all have around getting angry is like, I am going to destroy. We talked about this in the other podcast. That one is, it’s not believing the story. It’s seeing yourself as an actor. It’s like being in the observer position is a far better way to do it.

For somebody who goes into freeze or flight, being in the observer position is going to completely shut off anger. They are not going to be able to access it. For those people, they are going to need to go into the story a bit. They are going to need to believe the story a bit until the anger can move and they can listen to their body, whereas a person who believes that everybody is screwed up and they need to get angry to fix the situation or that it is highly okay that they are angry, then the best thing for them is to actually move into the awareness position, to see themselves being angry.

When I see this, the exercise I give people is, be an actor playing the role of you getting angry, so that they can see it is like, “I’m just here to give a good performance, but on some level I don’t believe it.”

Brett: If somebody is doing this on their own, without coaching or facilitation, and they are having some anger move, and they are like, I am going to get into the story a little bit, then once the anger starts moving, they go further into the story and really buying into it. What’s a way to internally catch that, if this is a practice people are exploring on their own just from this podcast alone?

Joe: You will know the feeling of buying into the story and the fact that you are unregulated. There are times where if you lose yourself in the release of anger, there is a huge amount of freedom there. But dysregulated is a little bit different. What I mean by that is where you have left your body, where you don’t feel like you are in your body anymore. For some people, they are looking at themselves from above, and for some people, they are not aware of time and space. It’s like they have completely lost themselves. If that’s happened, it means you bought into the story way, way too much.

The other thing that will happen is the anger won’t provide clarity at the end. At the end of an anger movement, you are going to get clarity and determination. That’s what’s going to happen. If you don’t get there, it means anger isn’t the proper emotion or you got completely lost in the story. You are just basically retraumatizing yourself at that point.

Brett: Can you be more specific on clarity and determination? I think one of the things that can happen is somebody finds clarity and they are like, “I am clear this person needs to change. I am pretty clear, fuck them.” What do you really mean by when it moves through clarity and determination?

Joe: It is a visceral sense. I am clear, fuck them. There is no clarity in that somatic experience. It is literally like relief. It is like, “Aha, I know what to do. It is clear. There is no more fight in me. The tension that I am feeling around it is so dissolved.” I wouldn’t say fuck them, but the clarity could be, “I don’t want to be around them.” It could be that. If it is, “I am clear, fuck them, you are not clear.” But if it is, “I realize I don’t want to be around them.”, that’s a second clue is, that clarity is all about you. It’s not about anybody else. It’s, I don’t want to be around them. It’s an I. It’s about yourself.

Brett: It’s about yourself. It’s about what you are going to do from your empowered place, and not what needs to happen around you.

Joe: That’s right. I think we only got to one. You asked me this question. What do you do about the collapse? What do you do about the unregulated? What do you do about the shame? The shame one, I think all you need is awareness. Don’t hurt yourself. Don’t hurt others. Don’t do it at anybody. Don’t break shit. It’s just that simple.

Brett: How do you do that without that becoming a should?

Joe: Like I said, I think all that is necessary is awareness. If you are aware one of the things I might do is recreate the cycle of shame around this anger, and then if you see it and you do it, you go just that’s me recreating the shame around it. That’s all that’s necessary. If you make it a should, it is going to take a lot longer.

With the collapse, if you notice you go into collapse, you have the use of will and just be like, I’m not doing that, just like you would in a workout, but the other thing that you can do is just repeat one sentence. “No. No, I won’t collapse. I won’t collapse.” Or, “You can’t stop me.”, just whatever that sentence is, that triggers the anger response. It’s like to feel the oppression of the collapse instead of the oppression of the anger. To feel the oppression of the collapse and respond to it, no, I am not going there. I will be empowered. You will not stop me. You will not stop me. You will not stop me from being angry. That is a really good thing. It often has huge releases for people. If they can just find that phrase in response to that very early childhood, no, you can’t be angry.

Brett: It seems like you can do that internally with your voice, with a partner, have that come out at society or around society in your safe place to express anger.

Joe: You said something with a partner, which is a kind of something that we do in our work, which is we will move anger with other people, which makes moving anger a lot easier, but there’s a lot of pitfalls there. A lot of people want to be good with anger when they are not, or somebody who has had a lot of anger trauma in their life will freak out, if people are getting around them. If you are moving anger with other people, I suggest that everybody moves it in themselves first, by themselves. That’s a for sure thing. Do it with one person and make sure you can stop it at any time. You do not want to recreate trauma for anybody.

Brett: This is all great. The thing I was referring to with a partner might be if you feel that that partner is not allowing you to be angry, there is that whole fractal layer of my internal voice in the head doesn’t let me be angry. I find myself in a partnership with somebody who doesn’t let me be angry. I have a society I believe won’t let me be angry and that I can’t. There are these layers of, I am allowed to be angry or not. One that I have heard recently, my partner was like, I exist. It is just an affirmation, letting it move and getting out of the collapse.

Joe: I exist is a great one. Beautiful. That’s the things to do around those that can go wrong while releasing.

Brett: Let’s get into more of the tricks for getting this to move.

Joe: Before we do, I am thinking about something. I am thinking about you moving the anger. I am just seeing if we are missing something here. You realize these are the symptoms of it. I see I need to move the anger in a clean way. These are the things that can get in the way of me doing it. I do it. These are the things that can go wrong while I am doing it. The other piece that I want to speak to is sometimes anger is the default thing once you start releasing it. You can use it as a way to cover the underlying hurt or fear. That can happen.

If you notice you are releasing anger and maybe you even get small bits of clarity, but it’s not like this, “Oh yeah, I see it– moment.” It just keeps on recycling really quickly, every couple days or every day or something like that. Then you have some other stuff to feel underneath. You have some fear, or some hurt or some helplessness or grief that’s left to feel. I would play with that. I would allow myself to feel those things.

Brett: Let’s move on to some tricks for people to be releasing their anger in a way that is safe and then reaching that determination and clarity or undercovering some of the other feelings they might be feeling, because it’s not always entirely about anger.

Joe: Listen to Tool. I love Tool.

Brett: That’s one of my favorites. Tick some niches.

Joe: I’ve been really into their album, the one that came after a long period of time. I like Tool particularly, because it is so angry and aggressive, but it is also speaking to this deep, spiritual truth. Any kind of anger, any kind of angry music can be really helpful. That’s a really good one.

If you are doing anything like learning how to be sad, you can just fake it, too. I was working with somebody the other day, and they were having this hard time. We were going back into when they were five years old. It was like what would it have been like to go through this scenario but getting angry at your father. They couldn’t say it. I was like, just fake it. Just fake it. It doesn’t have to be towards your dad. If you were playing a five-year-old, what would you say? That could release it. That’s a cool way to do it.

Brett: Similar to the performance, being an actor, giving yourself the space. If I were to let myself be angry and not do the other thing, what would that actually look like? Let’s pretend.

Joe: You can either be the actor and focus on the fact that it’s not who is angry. That’s for somebody who gets dysregulated. Then you can focus on giving a good performance if you are the kind of person who is not going to get angry. How do you give a good performance? The other thing is to respond to some of the thoughts at the beginning. The thought says there is no real good reason to be angry. They have their reasons. You should be compassionate. My favorite thing to say is, I’ve listened to you for a decade. Now I’m just going to listen to anger for 20 minutes. I’m just going to listen for 20 minutes.

That’s another way if you get dysregulated, is to listen to the anger. Either way, either you are playing the actor or listening to the anger, there is a part of you that’s outside of the process. The anger moves a lot quicker, if there is some part of you outside of the process, and the anger is moving. Both things have to be happening. Just responding to the voice in your head telling you not to. I’m going to listen for 15 minutes and see what it has to say.

Brett: Having a VIEW conversation with it until it comes out. It seems like you can also go places. There are times you might be feeling this, and it might be in the middle of a board meeting. You’ve got this stuff going on. You are like okay, voice, I’m going to listen to you that this anger isn’t safe here right now. I’ll listen to you for the next 10 minutes, and then when I am driving home, I am going to listen to the anger, but finding a safe place for it.

Joe: Finding a safe place is important. Yelling in a pillow, putting music on so nobody can hear you, going to the beach, doing it in the car, doing it in nature. You can just sit there and rant. It’s best if you are releasing anger with your physical body and your voice and your sounds. That’s where you are going to get the most, but you can just be like God damn, motherfucker. I fucking hate when that happens. Why the fuck is that always happening? It can literally just be like a rant that anybody could not hear from a different room. It’s not going to release the trauma musculature in the same way, but it is still a great process of moving the anger.

Brett: What about breathwork?

Joe: Breath is huge. It’s way too complicated to describe here, but I will say if you can breathe in a way that builds up your anger, that’s a great way. For those people who have repressed anger in a way that’s self-abusive, passive aggressive, to be able to breathe in such a way that allows you to get angry. It will be different for different people, but that would be a great one. Have the determination of working out is the same thing. Literally telling your body it’s safe. It’s okay to literally say I am not going to be abused here. I’m not going to get attacked by my abusive brother. I am not going to destroy anybody. I’m not hurting anybody. Nobody is here to hear me. Literally to tell your body that, give your body that message, it seems simple, but it can totally work.

Brett: What if you are someone like me who goes straight to compassion first? Anger comes up, and the body is like no, I love whoever I am angry at.

Joe: Ask your compassion to be compassionate to anger. If compassion is really being compassionate, it’s accepting of everything, including the anger.

You’ve probably seen me do this sometimes. You will see a couple of people when we are talking about it on circle. They will say something, and I will respond. They are like, “That made me really angry.” Typically, what’s happening there is they are saying something about, “I’m a victim and I’m stuck, and I call that victim into question.” They get pissed. It’s the response when the victim is called into question. When it is like, “Really, because your wife went to work and now you are a stay-at-home dad, you are the one that’s not in control. You have to do everything your wife says? It seems like you are the slave master and she’s doing all the work for you and making all the money.” What are we talking about here? They will be like, what the fuck. That anger comes up. I’m like that, that.

If you can deconstruct the victim, the thing that thinks you are stuck, and say actually, you are just pretending, the victim will get pretty damned angry. That’s another trick you can use.

Brett: To wrap this up, I am curious to ask you about the most recent time you found yourself having some repressed anger, how you caught it, how you knew it got to clarity, whether or not it was true clarity or later on you were like, there is still some more.

Joe: A couple things in that, there is always still some more. I don’t know if it is accumulated, meaning in two weeks I will have some anger. There is always something there to move. It is a very hard thing to describe. There is just a natural cycle in the body that accumulates and moves emotions. It’s just what happens. Just like all your other systems that accumulate stuff and then they move it. I keep on using the bathroom, but it is a very similar thing. There is really no time where there isn’t some sort of thing in there that can be moved.

The way that I notice my emotional movement needs to happen, and it is not usually so much anger or sadness. Once you start moving this stuff, it feels very much overtime like either stuck or not stuck. When you release it, it can move from anger to sadness to fear, all inside of a couple of minutes. What happens is, I wake up a little bit not wanting to face the day. That’s a pretty damned good thing that tells me, if I am reacting to myself in any way. That’s another thing.

Both of those two things happened. The course is a lot of work and we have more happening this year than last year, so I am really wanting to care for everybody and at the same time wanting to care for myself. That balance has not been entirely balanced the whole time. There’s been moments where I am just like, I don’t want to get on to circle and do this work. That tells me, I have some emotion that I need to move. It’s really any feeling of stuckness in my life, any feeling of not excited and joy is where I know I have something stuck, and it needs to move.

Brett: This has been awesome. Thank you, Brett. Looking forward to the next one.

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