What Changed After Master Class?

Eva: Being stuck in all patterns and in avoidance for me, becomes so painful that I don't want to do it anymore. Maybe you can try to contain it, but it's your own choice. You can suffer now if you want, but you can also not suffer. 

Joe: Hi everybody. This is Joe Hudson and welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, a podcast where we explore how you can get the life you want with enjoyment and ease.

And today we're doing something a little bit special, I've for a long time wanted to talk to people who have been through the Master Class for years, like people who have been doing it and have done it years ago. And mostly I wanted to do that, to learn how the effect was happening for them and what might we might need to change or wanna augment about the course and just generally just how everybody's experience was, especially like year, two years, three years later. So today we have three folks here with us, and I'm gonna give them a chance to introduce themselves in just a second. One did the Master Class a year ago, one did it two years ago, one, you did it three years ago.

And so we're gonna find out what their experiences were like and and what we might be able to learn from it. And so let me start off with the person who was the longest, which is Caroline, three years ago, I recall, yes? 

Caroline: I know I was like, which one am I? I was like I know I'm not one, but I might be two, might be three, hard to say. 

Joe: And Caroline's a writer from Berlin, but is there anything else you'd like to introduce about yourself before we get started? 

Caroline: I'm not German, I think it's important to say but I have lived in Berlin for almost six years and I write fiction and nonfiction, and I help people write books.

Joe: Awesome. Great. And then Eva was two years ago and she's an architect who lives, I'm gonna say it, part-time in Panama, part-time in Toronto. That might be a little premature. Do you wanna say anything about yourself, Eva? She was two years ago.

Eva: Yeah. Born and raised in Italy, so a hundred percent Italian, even if moving around. And yeah, I love being in the sun and I love architecture and I love design and being outdoors and being with you. 

Joe: And then from one year ago, Matthew, who is a consultant, a coaching consultant, and lives in Philadelphia. Is that right? 

Matthew: Just outside of Philadelphia, Adam Field, New Jersey, small town outside the city.

Joe: Yeah. Anything you wanna introduce yourself or say about yourself before we get started? 

Matthew: Not much to say I am I think age is helpful in these contexts for some reason. I am 47 years old and have a partner Adrian, and a young daughter who's gonna be three in a month named Antonia. 

Joe: Nice. And also really good to see you again. It's been a bit 

Matthew: Yeah. You too friend. 

Joe: Yeah. Okay, so let's get started. So first of all, the first thing I'd like to know is what on Earth made you sign up for a $6,000 online course? How did that decision get made?

Matthew: It's fresh for me so I can share. A dear friend of mine, she turned me onto the podcast, like it was at least two years ago. She was like, a lot of people I know are really like moving some big boulders with this work and she said, start with the podcasts and I have a tendency to go too all in and things. So I like gave myself several months, over a year I would say, just listening to the podcast and last summer I was like, it's time to jump in. And at that point it was like, I'm ready. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Matthew: It felt like it was a no brainer last year. 

Joe: Yeah. And what made you think that there would be something more in the course than in the podcast? Because it's such a hard thing to describe for people. We have such a hard time describing now the course is so different than the podcast. What made you think it would be different? 

Matthew: I knew it was depth, like I knew everything you were talking about had a next level of the work 'cause I felt like the podcast a lot of times, I was like, no, I want more practice. I want more tools. Knowing that those weren't the things, but so I was like, I realize I'm not gonna get these just by listening to this number one. And number two, I think that the community aspect, I was like, I want depth and I want other people that are doing this work. So I think those were the two big things for me. 

Joe: Awesome. I want to pin the community 'cause one of the things I'm curious about, but I want to ask at the right time, which is how many people are you still in contact with around the work? 'cause for all of you, that would be something that would be really interesting to me.

Matthew: Totally. 

Joe: Okay Eva or Caroline, who wants to answer the question, which was like, what made you sign up? What got you in the door to do this? 

Caroline: I can share. I think it was I found out about you through Tiago Forte because I had done the building a second brain course and I was just so excited by that because it just, I'm a giant nerd and I like being in school, so I was like very fulfilled by that course. And it's been 20 years since I was in grad school, but it felt like it scratched this itch with that. And so then when at the end of that course there was the q and A session that you did, it felt like it was the emotional, psychological component to the sort of intellectual portion of building a second brain. It was like the kinesthetic brain basically. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Caroline: And I had done, I did my MA in psychology 20 years before, but I was in my twenties when I did that, and I felt like I really benefited from doing that, but I felt like I'm a totally different person now than I was. So the idea of being able to revisit a lot of the themes at a different level was just, it was really exciting to me. So it, and I was like, it's cheaper than a master's degree, so I'm up for that.

Joe : Awesome. Very cool. Eva, what was, what got you there?

Eva: I wish I could give you like the easy answer, but I give to people that is Tiago and my partner was doing it, and I listened to a podcast and all of that. But my real truth is that I was at the one of the lowest time in my entire life, and I had no idea what to do, and I knew that I needed help somehow. And kicking and screaming I joined the Master Class 'cause some part of me knew that's what I needed. So it was a mix of deep despair and hope. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Eva: Oh yeah. 

Joe: Yeah. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for being vulnerable. Appreciate that.

Awesome. Okay, second question is what do you remember about being in the course from, months to years away? And let's do a slightly different order of people. So I'll just pick. Caroline what was your? 

Caroline: Yeah, I was gonna say, I was like, I don't want my memories distorted 'cause I'm the furthest, I'm the furthest back. If they tell me, then I'll remember all of it. I remember like we had a really meaningful hot seat. I had a great experience with my one-on-one partner. I really loved my small group. And then also the themes in particular, I still think about want over need. I still think about those themes in terms of making decisions. So those really stuck with me. And just thinking about, there was a theme of don't make up some story about what you should do. What do you actually want here? 

Joe: Yeah. 

Caroline: And that has stuck with me big time. 

Joe: Yeah. Eva since you were two years off what was your experience of being in the course? 

Eva: Yeah. It was an intense journey. It pushed my limits like nothing else but in a different way too like very, it really pushed, but never too much.

And the container was there, the support was there. So it felt like going through so much and at the same time with a good pace, good support and a continued discovery of like more things to look into. So I started like first week with a rapid fire coaching. So I just like I jumped in and I'm so glad I did and I think it put me in a position where I was more open to receiving everything that was offered and it unlocked me the idea that I can actually, I could actually engage and like really like actively participate in the course. So I remember it was intense. It was very intentional. It was hands on and also, I was held the whole time. 

Joe: Yeah. I'll ask the next question in a second after we hear from Matthew. What was your only less than a year ago, what was your experience of doing the course? 

Matthew: The thing that jumped out at me the most, and I say this to people all the time, like I feel like I've been consuming personal and professional development stuff for decades, and like very little of it has actually stuck.

And I feel like once I got into Master Class, like the prompts weren't these outlandish things, but they changed my view on, they changed my view on myself. They like changed my view of the world and in a way that I was like, this is different from anything I have experienced before in this self-exploration work.

And it's funny 'cause it's hard for me to pinpoint the why, but it feels so different being in the work, seeing the language we use to talk about ourselves and the world and have that shown to you in a new way. I just, it is hard to put into words, but I felt it immediately. I was like, this is different. This is different than anything I've done to try to like more deeply connect with myself in the world. 

Joe: We hear that a lot, especially from folks who've been doing like tons of self-development work. So I'm going to, I'm gonna push if you can give us any hints about what makes it unique compared to the other stuff that you did. What was, what do you think it is that hits it? 

Matthew: Caroline made the point, which was so good, authenticity over improvement. I think the first thing was like, I'd been doing this work for years with this focus on improvement and the thing that felt so different was like no there is an innate goodness in you as a person that we are going to unpeel these layers to get to and that has everything you need. Whereas everything else, I feel like the things that brought me into it, the work I was doing with this was this, I have to improve. 

Joe : Yeah. 

Matthew: And this was like, no, you are good as you are. So I don't know if that fully answers the question, but that felt, that really felt like the distinction for me. Oh wait, I'm okay. I'm actually good. I just need to reconnect to like that true version. 

Caroline: I have a thought. Also about, I'm just thinking about the experience of going through it, was that I am the sort of person who will, you can see I have 5 million books, like I wanna get to the why really fast but this course didn't let us do that. So I remember, doing exercises and doing practices and just taking it on. Joe said this was a good idea to try, so I'm gonna try it, but the fact that there were no intellectual explanations before doing the exercises and that we just had to do them and be with other people and take it as an experiment. And also that there wasn't a lot of wordiness in the program. It was like, you can read a whole book on a philosophy and not remember any of it, but it was like, authenticity over improvement. I can remember that it wasn't feeding my little inner nerd. It was like enough that you felt it. You had to feel it before you could talk about it and that was the way it was structured. So you didn't skip over the experiential. So there was a foundation, I think, once we did talk about it, it's like we had a shared experience to refer to. 

Joe: Yeah. Very cool. Onto the other question that I wanted to ask around this, which was how was the relational aspect? It's not something done a lot in society. Oh, here's a group of strangers and we're gonna go super deep with these folks. How was that in the experience for you all? Like how was that journey for you? 

Matthew: I was just gonna say, I felt the way they set up the order where it's like, hey, you have to do the work by yourself first, and then there's a partner, and then you're just like, I just think that cadence is perfect 'cause it's okay, I realize I gotta start just with me. And then, all right, now I have a safe space with just one partner and now I have some other folks to bring in. So that felt, by that first group meeting, I was like, all right, like I'm good. 

Eva: I think for me, so initially the idea was terrifying of having to show everything, all my dirty laundry to first one stranger and then a group of strangers, and then if I wanted to the bigger community with a rapid fire coaching or circle.

But it's true, like they being gradual and knowing I do my work first when we do it with partner and then the group. And it was incredible just how, like how doing that unlocked or shed light on different aspects that were not part of the curriculum, but like all these insecurities or fear like how do we choose the one-on-one partner? 'Cause we had to choose a partner, and be chosen and the awkwardness and the group and oh, these are complete strangers. And part of me was so relieved, it was just strangers and part of me was terrified. So having to go through all that, like noise and background work while doing the work was so powerful. I didn't believe that like doing grouping a work would really add so much to the process. And so I, but I tried to leave my skepticism out for a little bit and just try it. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Eva: And it was very powerful. 

Joe: Yeah. The reason that we do those like very short slogans and there's not an intellectual, a lot of intellectual till after is that what we've noticed, like when we do the week long, which I know Eva, you've done like the in person, nobody remembers what the fuck happened the entire, they're just like, what the fuck happened? I only remember yesterday. You're all laughing. You have that experience and I remember this I wish I knew who this guy's name, but he was a Spanish guy and he said you can either do the kind of work where you, the self-development work where you after 10 years can describe everything that's wrong with you, but nothing's changed, or you can do the work that you say, what the fuck just happened? I can't describe any of it, but everything has changed. And so there's a theory about it that you're using, like your brain is in a different set of brain waves for that theta, and so you don't remember in the same way, but all we know for sure is that people don't remember. People don't remember the work. And so to do a whole bunch of intellectualization beforehand doesn't really make a lot of sense until like it's in their bones and their body.

Okay. Cool. So next question is so now three months afterwards, so like that first three months of you're done with the course, you've got some ways of interacting with us, maybe less for you, Caroline, because we didn't have as many like other ways for people to jump in back then. What was that like three months after the course? The August, September, October? What was, how I'm gonna start with Matthew on this one because that smile is killing me. What? What? 

Matthew: I was like August, I was a puddle. I will say like the thing I didn't account enough for, and this is like one of the lessons learned, like that recovery time every week is so important. And I just scheduled the rest of my life around Master Class and I was not scheduling that recovery. So when August hit and that, like that first week, I was like, I don't want to interact with anybody, like I just wanna be. Yeah, so August was, August was a month of stillness with healthy movement mixed in. But then by September there was part of me that was like, to this point around not knowing what's going on in it, to be like, I have to go back and revisit some of this stuff because there was stuff that I only practiced for a week, that if I had a month with the thing, I would love to go deeper on it.

Joe: Yeah. 

Matthew: So that felt like the thing to do. And that's what I did. I was like, oh, this thing felt, like a very ripe area for exploration. Like the family stuff for me, I went down a rabbit hole with my mom and my brothers and so yeah, that was, once I had recovered a little bit, I was like, now where what's the lead domino of this that I wanna spend some more time in?

Joe: Yeah, that's cool. How about for you, Caroline? 

Caroline: I think it was not quite that intense because I tend to book a fairly mellow August. That's just I live in Europe, so that is how we do. And also my birthday's the end of August, so I tend to take a holiday around then.

So it, the recovery wasn't so much of a challenge. But what I found was really helpful and what I ended up doing without any particular like intention to it, but it did really help me digest, was I listened to the podcast a lot right after we finished. So I found myself revisiting and that helped things to sink in and that was really helpful. And then I ended up, I was lucky in that I ended up, I can't remember exactly when this was, it might have been as late as October, but September-ish I ended up going to London. I have a relative who lives there. I have a bunch of friends there and a lot of my small group lived in London.

So I ended up having dinner in person and got to hang out with them and that was a really just a nice sort of feeling the community in person. So that was also a real treat. 

Joe: Yeah. And Eva, how was it for you? The three months after? 

Eva: Yeah, I would say the last week of the Master Class and the next month was like really intense, like a lot of things got stirred up and needed to be looked at. It was a profound month of really getting in touch with the wants, like in a way that I never, I'd never experienced before. It was a month where trying to understand and think was completely useless and I guess I made peace with that.

It just, nothing made sense and made sense at the same time. So it was it helped a lot to take some time on my own just to be with whatever and take it slow and it was, it was a lot of months of knowing that I had seen things that I couldn't unsee and trying to navigate my way through it, not trying, actually just letting things happen so that I could navigate through it. And I couldn't really tell what happened in August and September. It's funny, it's like I cannot even remember what happened in August, September and ended up October. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Eva: But I was deeply like doing the work. It just it was like a wave, but had to like, come to shore. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Eva: I don't know if I am sure.

Joe: So the if this becomes a podcast and nobody can see, people can't see it, everybody's nodding. They're all yeah. Like we all, yeah, we totally know what you're talking about. It is this weird thing about, I tell people about after you're doing this work, it's if you show up at the grocery store and you don't know what to buy, that's great, but don't force yourself to try to put it all together.

That's what the to be in that unknown space for as long as possible, I think is totally critical. If you try to rebuild yourself quickly it's not as good. So I have a question about that actually, is what could we have done, if anything, to support you all in that like transition of that month of who am I, what am I, what do I do? How do I do? Like things are different and I like, is there how at all could we be more supportive in that? Or is it, do you feel like it's just part of what's necessary or? 

Caroline: I wonder if there's like a way to do, I don't know, like a come down guide or something of when you book like what Matthew was saying of, you might wanna book a week or two without a bunch of plans after this course. Or it might even be cool to do a survey of alumni and just say what resources were super helpful to you afterwards, and then just if you did like a series of emails that are like, hey, one week after you might try taking more naps or, it's okay if you still feel guilty about it, which you probably don't after this program. I nap so much now, by the way.

Joe: Yeah. 

Caroline: It's so great. But just things that people have said here's this person who said they really loved this episode. Here's a link to it. You might wanna take a listen this week. Just to revisit or just something. I've also seen ones where there's an extra call. That's like a month after the end. That's is anybody freaking out?

Joe: Yeah, we do. We do that now. Yeah, we do that now.

Caroline: I don't know if we did it when I was there. 

Joe: I don't think we did. Yeah, I don't think we did. Yeah. 

Caroline: You're ahead of me then. 

Matthew: I even think a guide like that for during, 'cause I clearly did not carve out enough recovery time every week, enough integration time. I almost wish I budgeted more time for Master Class during the weeks. So I wasn't like trying to squeeze stuff in, ignoring recovery. Especially once you start doing the emotional releases, like that was something that really kicked my ass and I didn't clear enough space after those things, that's for sure. 

Joe: I think that's another thing that makes the course different. Going back to that is that emotional release stuff, I think is different than what a lot of folks are doing in a, especially in an online course.

Matthew: When I said family stuff, that's, I should have said emotional release stuff 'cause it was less about the family and it was more about the emotion, the emotional dynamics of the family that had to be released. Yeah. Totally.

Eva: Yeah. That's so true. And also because at that point, you don't even know that what you need is an emotional release of some sort. But then if someone offers that to you and you do it, that is oh yeah. Yeah, it's exactly what I needed. And for everyone is different 'cause I'm feeling emotions, so whatever you needed to process. But it's true 'cause at least like for me, the resistance was still there, like fear, like some sort of like edging on something and having the possibility to again choose to attend to something 'cause no one can do it for you or force you to do it. But just knowing, hey, it's right here, you want it. When you choose it's the right time for you or not. But I find it helpful 'cause especially with emotional release, like doing it on your own is a little bit more challenging. Not the actual doing the release, but starting it.

Joe: Yeah. It's always a challenge for us about the, like in all the year long programs that we have now, we do the emotional release regularly. Because we can track folks and say, oh, is there, but like it's a little bit scarier for us to do like big emotional releases and not be tracking people, because it feels like it's really important that, especially if they're learning stuff while they're doing the emotional releases, if something comes up, we want them cared for. So that's the balance we're trying to strike in that.

Okay. So now. Last major question, three years, two years, almost a year afterwards. Like background music? Fuck it? It was like, what is it like, wow. Holy shit. I'm so glad. Like every time I've asked a question, you all answered a little bit differently than I intended for the question.

So I just want to ask something to the effect of what are the, like how do you view this thing? How do you relate to it? Three years, two years, almost a year afterwards. And so let's go backwards, Caroline. Three years later, what, how do you relate to it? 

Caroline: I think it was 100% worth it, I think. And it's the kind of thing where I feel lucky to get to have this conversation because you don't always make the connection as, oh, this is why that is easier now. Because I think I remember Thich Nhat Hanh saying something once where he was saying like, you don't notice, not toothache, you notice a toothache, but if the toothache is gone then you're not like, oh, it's so great. I did that. So now I don't have toothache anymore. So there are a lot of things that are not toothache now, but I don't every day think, oh yeah, that's because I did the Master Class. It's more like it built up skills of not getting hooked into drama, even when challenging things happen. And also noticing I had a family situation recently that I just got angry because there was a miscommunication and I just walked around the house saying I'm really angry. And normally I don't know if I would've felt comfortable doing that. I was like, I'm fucking furious and then I did that for a while, and then the next day I was fine and I could totally have a conversation and then the other person in the situation was like, I'm so sad that I've lost this connection with you.

And I said, you haven't lost me at all, because we're having the conversation. I was angry because we had a miscommunication, which was based on not having a conversation, but now we're having the conversation like maybe it's uncomfortable, but it's fine. 

Joe : Yeah. 

Caroline: And I don't, that was not the kind of interaction that was happening before this program. And also it's now enough for me to say I think it changed my work things. I'm doing things in my work that I don't, 100%, Does anyone know that they will pay off? But I'm like, this is what I wanna do right now. And maybe it doesn't look exactly the way I would've thought it would look, but it's what I wanna do.

So it's what I'm doing. And weirdly, it's working better than trying to do it the right way, like trying to write two books at once because I want them both done. What is that? And then this year I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna write one of 'em. And I finished it, I just finished it on Friday in three months and I was like, huh, maybe you should just write the one you wanna write right now and write the other one later.

It's just a, things like that, they come really fast as soon as I stop for a second and say, okay, what is the, what do I really wanna do right now?

Joe: Yeah. 

Caroline: So those are my not toothaches that I think, the toothaches I no longer have because of having done Master Class. 

Joe: Yeah. It's such the, what you just said there about work.

It's such a hard thing to describe to folks and I'd love, I love your description of it, of that. Yeah, they shouldn't be working. It's not the right way to do it, but just somehow everything's working better. Everything, like what? What the best I can describe it as is that the strategy of how to get ahead falls away, and then you're in your authenticity and that just moves fucking quicker, moves better, quicker. You're happier. Okay. Eva? Two, two years. Two years after.

Eva: Yeah. I, again, like sometimes, I'm surprised that I still think, oh no, I haven't really changed. And ha, like I mean parts of me really laughs because it's so not true. The awareness of seeing the patterns of that, like not noticing. Oh, sorry. I'm noticing that you don't have a toothache anymore. It's a muscle that is just like alive now and noticing how being stuck in old patterns and in avoidance for me especially, it becomes so painful that I don't want to do it anymore. Maybe I resist the want but like spring is there, it's like activated wants to jump out. Like you can try to contain it, but it's your own choice. You can suffer now if you want, but you can also not suffer and that's the most powerful thing ever. I keep fighting of course, but less and less I guess. And yeah, the authenticity of just not trying to make sense of everything and going a bit with what the want is, and seeing, like I could see, especially in the last year, how it had this ripple effect in my family.

I had to, I struggled with that so much 'cause I got to a point where maybe I could see patterns in other people and having the strength to bring it back to me instead of trying to fix others and bringing it back to me. My experience, my everything enduring the suffering and the pain in myself and seeing others.

Not having what I have thanks to the Master Class. And still then I can see how, especially in the past few months, things unraveled in a way in my family that I could not be happier and I was able to show up in a way that would've been impossible for me like a couple of years ago. Not only in like in my personal relationship, 'cause I'm lucky enough that my partner dip into the work too, so we have a shared language. But with people who have never even done therapy, like it's just and it's still everything changed. 

Joe: I love that juxtaposition that you just said, and I think it's such an important thing. It's like you named what I see to be the steps, which is like you did the work on yourself, then you stopped trying to fix other people, and then they changed. You know what I mean? Then you're like, I'm not focusing on other people. I'm gonna focus on myself. And then the people change. If people are going to change, it's after you've stopped trying to change them and you focus on yourself. That was beautifully said. Matthew, how about you? So you've only been whatever, nine months out?

Matthew: It's so interesting because initially I remember there was a hurry up and integrate. You've just done all this great work, now hurry up and integrate. So that was the first thing I'd be like, don't you dare. So that was the first thing I had to be with. And then Eva, i'm so happy you said that because I was so excited about having done the work. I wanted to share it and I had to realize that I was wanting to share it because hey, and you can change your life too with this. That's gotta go in that post guide. 

Joe: Oh, we say it. 

Matthew: I know you do. 

Joe: People are gonna do that no matter how many times we, 

Matthew: I know. I would say those were like the first couple of stumbles outta the gate, and then it was like, oh, like I can be so slow with this work. And also, like the thing that has really helped me is without the intention of doing the work, just and these words resonate every day now because of all of you. It is more of a focus on a way of being. And the way of being in my life now just feels easier. It doesn't mean things haven't been hard. It doesn't mean we're not dealing with difficult things, but my relationship with those things is so much different. My relationship with my emotions is so much different. And I think that is the thing that I'm like, the less, again, the less trying I do, the more I can just show up in this way. Whether it is, my two brothers, like at each other's throats, which was one of my family things after Master Class where like I would've handled, very differently.

So yeah that I will say, it just feels like this, how do I wanna be today? Just feels like the voice in my head that is encouraging me to, continue to connect to that authenticity. And even when I screw up, I'm like, you wanted to do a little bit better than that and also I'm not gonna judge you for it, but maybe next time, like it just feels like a softer, more encouraging, like when I'm not accomplishing the things I wanna accomplish, like it's not with judgment, it is like with kind of care and with wonder.

So I just it feels different the way I interact with myself and the world each day, even knowing I have it integrated everything that, that thing is true every day. 

Joe: That's cool. 

Eva: And can I add something to the voice in the head? 'cause I didn't mention that at all for like my two years post Master Class, but I think that is an ongoing process for me, for sure.

But, it just changes perspective on life, on your identity, on how you relate to people, how you relate to yourself on stories, limiting belief. It is just such a game changer. It's one of those things that of course you immediately wanna try to fix, eliminate, make better, and once you start, like loosening up a little bit around it, it's just a new way of seeing life and also relating to people, like sometimes I feel that I am interacting with a voice in the head, in someone else. It's not even them anymore. And sometimes I see that oh, actually right now I'm acting out a voice in my head. Let's step back. So it gives the ability to not only step back, but also giving like the means to really be with that because it's different from meditating and seeing that your thoughts are arising and leaving and it's not you that kind of inter, like not personal and it's richer in real life, real time, constant. You can see it everywhere and everyone. It's such an enriching way of looking at life and experiences. It's such a gift to remember that's a possibility I always have. 

Joe: Okay, so some question on this. So I have a, one of the open questions I have about the courses is, so for a while I just thought the people who jumped in with both feet got the most out of the course. All three of you jumped in with both feet, just bam. I'm here, I'm in it to win it. Recently, I've had a couple like correspondences from people from years back who were like, that I hardly noticed in the course because they were so quiet. They were so in the background, and they're like, life has changed. Everything's changed. Thank you so much. I still believe that the more you put in, the more you get out. Maybe they were just putting in different ways. I wanted to hear what your thoughts were both about, what you put in, how you get out, and how we could potentially encourage people to, if they've signed up for the course to either jump in with both feet or jumping in a way that allows them to have the most out of the course. Like what can we do better on that do you all think? 

Caroline: I have a little bit of a thought there? 

Joe: Yeah, please. 

Caroline: I think there was a really lovely image and I wish I could remember who said it, but it was somebody in either circle or in our small group meeting or something, and there was this sense, there was an image somebody shared of a bunch of people skydiving together and he said sometimes it feels like you're falling, but you're really flying. And I thought about that image like at least once a week since then. And oh, I think that part of the experience was about jumping in the way that feels like a big leap for you so that you can feel this sense of, whoa, this is a little big for me and that's gonna look different for everybody.

Joe: Yeah. 

Caroline: And so I think that getting to that place so that you can feel this tension of, am I falling or am I flying? You have to get beyond playing it safe. That's something that's shifted as well is that I'm now addicted to being in that place.

Like I used to, I don't know if you do this Joe, but 'cause as a podcaster, but I used to write all these questions for guests and I still get people, I had somebody who was like a New York Times columnist. I didn't prepare a single question. I was just like, I'm just going in and I'm gonna see what we find, like just really being in this space together. 'cause I know something is gonna happen. That would've made me throw up when I started the show nine years ago, but now I wouldn't do it any other way. But it's like you have to take the context of your life, look at what your safe kind of space is and push to the edge of it, and then see how it feels to do the course. Going beyond what the you who came into the course is comfortable with, because then you're gonna see that you're able to do more than you thought. 

Joe: That's really well said. Yeah. And by the way, absolutely. I have absolutely learned that preparing doesn't serve me. If there's a hundred percent preparation, 5% preparation serves me, 0%, percent preparation doesn't serve me, but I need to feel like it's alive and it's there. Like I might have a loose outline in my head that I've thought about for five minutes right before the podcast, which is what's happening here and now, but like at general, it's like I, I wanna be in the moment, wanna be present, so much so that, I don't read the chats because I wanna be so in like when we're doing Zoom calls, I don't read chats because I wanna be so in it with everybody and not be thinking. Yeah. 

Caroline: Because every time you prepare questions, you go in there and then they're like, oh yeah, back in that time when I was a submarine captain, and you're like, what? Like obviously we're talking about that now, like fuck the questions, tell me about the submarine. 

Joe: Exactly. 

Caroline: And if you prepare too much, you lose it. But it's like you have to, you have to trust yourself that you can handle going off the map. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Caroline: Because I think a lot of people come into a course like this where it's it's gonna be structured. You're gonna do these things, it's all gonna be handled. It's oh, great. Okay. I can play in my little dance space. But it's yeah, we're doing that so that you can jump out of the space and then see that all of it still works. 

Joe: Yeah, really well said. Any other thoughts, Eva and Matthew? 

Matthew: It feels unachievable. Like when you see the amount of work every week, you're like, this feels unachievable. And I think but after that first loving accountability, you're like, no one is going to be perfect in this and there may be like that may be someone's goal to be perfect in this, but that as soon as that exercise was introduced, it was like, I can show up to this in support of the people that I'm working with, 'cause I do think I appreciate how important that is. Hey, it is important that you show up for this for the other folks, but in terms of the work you're doing and how you're deciding to show up, like as soon as that grace was given, I was like, oh, okay. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna bat a hundred percent for this week and that's okay. And I'm still gonna get something like, there is not a week, even if you don't, even if you do the minimum amount that you're not gonna get something out of and I think that is just a reality that you are coming in wherever you are. You can try to do it all. You can try to do the minimum amount and regardless of where you start and where you end, like you're not gonna not get anything from it. 

Caroline: It might be the biggest risk not to do it perfectly. You know there's like the people who do every single, I am somewhat guilty of that, but its like, 

Matthew: I have this spreadsheet. Don't get me wrong. 

Caroline: I know I'm with you. I love a spreadsheet, but it's like to be the person who shows up having done 80% of that might be the risk that shows like, I'm still valuable in this community, even if I don't have the perfect spreadsheet.

Joe: Yeah. 

Eva: Yeah, it is like going against the grain of what your usual you is. If it's someone who always wants to share everything, write everything, talk, engage with a million people, what it's like to take a moment before being the first one to raise their hand, what is like to actually do it instead and own it a hundred percent or like what it is like to act as someone who would, there's a lot of room for experiments. So I think like what I would say is like more than jumping in completely or staying a little bit like far back is like, how can you do something you would not normally do? 

Joe: Yeah. 

Eva: Knowing that it's okay, like we're all here doing it. That is a thing. I don't know if maybe someone could find a question that it's true for themselves 'cause they know if they are playing it safe and maybe it's fine. But just being very intentional, I dunno if there's a way for everyone to be very intentional every week with whatever they're doing, they take charge. And I think that is, to me, I think the most powerful thing, just reclaiming your ownership of every single interaction you have with the group. And then dealing with the consequences. Consequences, meaning your own thoughts.

Joe : Yeah. Beautiful. 

Matthew: That would've been an awesome prompt up front, the hey, how would you normally show up for this thing? And challenge yourself to not just lean into that, that, like that prompt to experiment while in it. 

Joe: Yeah. I love that prompt. I also love the prompt of your edge just, it needs to feel a little bit like falling, a little bit like flying. That's where, that's the place. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Thank you for that. Awesome.

Last question that I said I was gonna ask and then if there's anything you wanna add, which is are you still in touch with your folks or like the people that you do you still have relationships with the people who did the Master Class?

Everybody's nodding yes. That makes me so happy. That I think it's so important to us. I think generally the only discount that we give for anything is a community discount because we know how powerful it is for having people who do the work together. But also the other part is we want to create experiences where people create a community so they have each other to do the work with. And so because we don't want people convincing folks to do this work ever really, that's fantastic. That's so good to hear that that's still, that's cool. 

Matthew: And we're trying to do in person. We're still juggling between New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, but yeah. Because I think, and Caroline, you mentioned that experience you had right after like I think that everybody who I'm talking to, like they're craving some in-person community around this work. 

Joe: Yeah. That's part of why we do that, the reunion for people who've done the deeper work. But it's so hard 'cause we have such an international clientele. and so many languages. It's always fun to look out and see like somebody's on a beach in Vietnam, somebody's like hanging out in like Norway with snow in the back. What were you gonna say, Eva? 

Eva: Yeah. But it's incredible how people like really want then to connect and want to come to reunion. I was so impressed by some people who like, I'm like, how can you find the time to it just makes no sense for them to be here and it makes perfect sense for them to be here. Also, I never thought I would be one of those people.

Joe: Awesome. So that's where I would end it. However, is there anything else you all wanna share? 

Caroline: Just thank you. And thanks for this opportunity to revisit. I think it's always good, I think, to have a moment to make that comparison. 

Joe : Yeah. 

Caroline: Because again, if you're just going along and things are working well, you don't necessarily take that moment, which is really valuable.

Joe: Yeah. When I remember my own journey, there was like a time when I was like, working, working, Working. Is it making a difference? Is it making a difference? Is it making a difference? It's not, it is, oh my God, is it not? It is like all that stuff. And then there was like the moment of clearly fucking shit has changed, and maybe I wanted to go faster, but clearly shit has changed. And then there's like the, now it's like those moments of something comes out of left field that reminds you of how it used to be, and you're like, oh my God, I'm so grateful. Like I don't even recognize that way of being anymore. But I can now see that I used to do that. And such an interesting thing in the journey of how we relate to the journey itself. How we change in our relationship with the journey itself. 

Eva: Yeah. And this, thank you. And this kind of different way of feeling gratitude 'cause even just now that you said thank you is a deeper different thank you. Yeah, just, it seems so simple, but doing gratitude after Master Class is different and even just that I've seen what a difference it makes. 

Matthew: I will add to that. This feels like a generational level up. I, for myself, for my family, for my daughter like this because it helps me see and this goes back to like my inability to integrate things historically. It's 'cause I wasn't really understanding how I was relating to work, how I was relating to self, how I was relating to family. And this just, it felt like putting, putting on a, a perfect set of lenses to see the world from an authentic perspective. And I just, it's like it is a gift. It will serve generations long past me and that I'm so grateful for. 

Joe: Yeah. And I hadn't thought about, I think about it that way in my own you're making me misty as well, but I think about that for my own work, where I'm like, I know that the work that I've done, literally makes me jealous of my children sometimes. Where I'm like, you have such a great childhood and I didn't have that. And I view it as that, as like this gift to others. I've never viewed until this moment, that gift. And I always think about the people who write me and say, my life has changed and my relationships have changed. I've never until this moment thought about and it touches me very deeply that, that like it's generational changes happening everywhere. So thank you. Thank you for that. 

Matthew: You're welcome. My mom thanks you too. She was like, your grandfather was this way, your father was this way, you were this way and now I see that that's starting to change.

Joe: You can tell her she's welcome. 

Matthew: I definitely will. 

Joe: Alright, thank you everybody. Thank you very much. Good to see you. 

Caroline: Thank you.

Matthew: Thanks so much. 

Brett: Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe and rate us on your podcast app. We'd love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions or comments.

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