How to End Procrastination Now

Joe: The procrastination requires the self-abuse. It requires the questioning of self. 

Brett: That takes some deep unlearning. 

Joe: If you couldn't be hard on yourself. How much procrastination would happen? 

Brett: What if the procrastination is a signal that our priorities are just way off? 

Joe: It bends the mind to understand that our agenda is not always the most effective thing. That's actually what procrastination is. It's not wanting to feel a particular way.

Brett: Welcome to this week's episode of The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore living the life you want with enjoyment and ease. Today we're talking about procrastination. We're gonna talk about what makes people procrastinate, how to get outta procrastination, and how working on procrastination can be an unlock for everything in your life. Enjoy.

Joe, I've known you for most of a decade, and I've never seen you procrastinate, and you talk a lot about how you used to procrastinate all the time. And I never knew that version of Joe, but I know this version of Joe. And how did we get here from there? 

Joe: To understand procrastination was a journey and the more I understood it, the less procrastination happened.

So for me, the journey of not procrastinating anymore was just simply to understand it. And there's different aspects of it that I understood over time, but generally it was very much just understanding what actually procrastination is, how it works, what it did to my system. And so that really is how it all unfolded for me.

But yeah, you're right. I never feel like I'm procrastinating. I feel like I prioritize all the time, but I do not feel like I'm procrastinating really, ever. 

Brett: Yeah. So for those who are watching who are like, okay, this guru guy who says he doesn't procrastinate, let's like drill in 'cause there's definitely things that you don't do, there's things you do. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: Over time things get done. That happens for everybody. You could call it procrastination or prioritization. So let's really define what are you calling procrastination when you say that you don't do it? 

Joe: Yeah, so procrastination is telling yourself you should do something and then not doing it. Or telling yourself this is an important thing to do, that you it would be important to do today. Maybe there's not even a should attached, and then not doing it. So procrastination doesn't happen unless you tell yourself that you're supposed to have done it. 

Brett: So there's some sort of expectation versus what's happening? 

Joe: Yeah. More specifically, there's some sort of self-abuse going on as well. 

Brett: Say more on that. 

Joe: So, a great question to think about it is if you couldn't be self-abusive. If you couldn't be hard on yourself, if you couldn't shame yourself, if you couldn't ride yourself like a shitty ass boss. How much procrastination would happen? Just generally, how much would you be procrastinating? 

Brett: Yeah. I'm checking things in my life that I've done or not done. Let's just drill into one example. There's certain things that are just really uncomfortable to do. 

Joe: Yes.

Brett: And maybe I know I'm gonna do it, and then I'm gonna feel exhausted and maybe I don't want to feel exhausted after I do it. So I do it a different time when I'm prepared to feel exhausted. Is that procrastination? 

Joe: Yeah. Or is that prioritization? Without self-abuse, which is it? 

Brett: So it's telling myself I should have gotten the thing done and being self-judgmental about the way that I prioritized might become now I've procrastinated in my world, I've procrastinated. 

Joe: Correct. And so what I'm hearing some people probably thinking in the audience is some version of, great. So Joe, you do whatever you want. And you convince yourself not to do these things that are important and therefore you're not procrastinating, but you're really procrastinating. Like I can see somebody thinking that. 

Brett: Is this a bypass? Are you just saying you're not procrastinating, but you're just it's also prioritization. I like I send you an email or a text and you tend to respond in a reasonably close fashion. But I know you're extremely busy. I experienced myself often being like, oh, I, there's a ball that was dropped.

And I noticed that I don't experience you with a whole lot of self-judgment around a ball that it was dropped, for example. 

Joe: Correct. Correct. 

Brett: There will be things and you'll just own, this was the priority. That wasn't the priority. I've joked a bunch of times about how we haven't done a procrastination episode. We've been talking about it for years. 

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. 

Brett: And in my system, I play with the idea that we're procrastinating on it. That's fun and ironic. 

Joe: Right. 

Brett: But also, you've never really volleyed back with that joke. 

Joe: Nope. Yeah. 

Brett: Because you're just like, no, I'm not. 

Joe: It doesn't even feel like it.

Let's go through what it means to not procrastinate. Let's go through and see how procrastination unfolds and so that it doesn't happen in your life. Procrastination is a great gateway because as you learn to allow procrastination to not be procrastination, and that changes, what it does is it frees up a tremendous amount of energy to get a whole bunch of stuff done really consistently getting it done well.

Brett: Yeah and it can be sneaky, over the course of the years, as I've been doing more of this work. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: My mind has had to catch up to the ways that I've changed. And I look at what I'm doing, and it might be different from what I was expecting to be doing, but I'll realize that I'm actually doing what was really important to me. I'm actually getting done the things that matter and it's effortless. It's easeful, thoughtless. 

Joe: Yes. All those things. 

Brett: Thoughtless in the sense that I'm not like thinking that I should do it. 

Joe: Right? Ya.. 

Brett: And it does just happen naturally. It seems like there's a natural rhythm that we can follow that is just a different track than the one where we're telling ourselves what we should be doing, and then we're calling procrastination. 

Joe: Most people do a hundred things a day without procrastination. The ones who call themselves procrastinators, and maybe they procrastinate on two or three things, but then they define themselves as a procrastinator. But the reality is, I have never met somebody who's actually a procrastinator for the majority of who they are. They're actually doing stuff all the time.

It's just they're procrastinating on a couple of things, and that's a really good clue as to what makes us procrastinate. Because those particular things you'll notice that there's a feeling that you get from them or a way that you're approaching them that is different than all the things that you actually do.

So let's start there. So there's studies that show that procrastination is most likely, and my experience of this is direct, that it is really the avoidance of an emotional state. That's actually what procrastination is. It's not doing something, it's not wanting to feel a particular way. So oftentimes when I'm working with people and we wanna undo the procrastination, we just change the emotional state of the doing. So that's a big part of it, if you're procrastinating, there's an emotional state of the doing of the thing that feels like crap. Either you're worried about people's judgment or you're worried about being perfect or you're worried about the results.

Maybe you're gonna have to feel something if you're successful or feel something if you fail. And if you actually address that emotional reality underneath, or change the way you do it, like an iterative process, then procrastination just starts disappearing. If I'm trying to make a perfect website, it's not gonna be as good as a website where I can iterate.

I do it, it feels good, and then I redo it, and then I redo it, and then I redo it, and now I have something that's great. And there's a wonderful thing, and this was really important to me on how I learned how to be so creative so consistently, so fast, and it came from this, is that, you do your first pass of something like you're a 3-year-old playing, and then you become like an exacting editor of every pass after. You learn how to just get out of your head, get out of judgment, just let whatever's gonna come and then take as many passes as you need until you think, wow, that thing is amazing. Just the same way when we started the podcast.

Brett: I was gonna just say that, yeah.

Joe: Tons of them until we were like, oh, 

Brett: Threw a handful of them out. 

Joe: Yeah, exactly. Here now this feels great. 

Brett: Yeah. It's fascinating. There seems to be like various phases of it, there's a way that if something, the more pressure there is, the more procrastination happens 'cause pressure is uncomfortable.

Pressure's tension, pressure's constriction, pressure on yourself is there's all these consequences that you're creating in your world that you have to avoid. And so the more pressure there is, the more likely you are to procrastinate. But oftentimes, people to get through procrastination will create enough pressure to push them all the way through.

Joe: And I haven't seen that. I know that's the story but I actually haven't seen that. I've seen them push enough pressure to start but I've never seen them in any kind of long project. Maybe cleaning the house, they can build enough pressure to clean the house or something but as far as a big project, like starting a business or something like that. 

Brett: Yeah. Big sustained projects are a bit different. Doing a paper last minute because you have 30 minutes left before you turn it in.

Joe: Yeah, because that's actually what that is doing is it's making you present, right?

So again, it's not that the pressure has been built, it's because if you have 30 minutes to write your paper, you're not gonna be in your head judging yourself. You don't have time to be all looping around trying to make it perfect. You got X amount of time. I'm gonna just do what comes out.

Brett: So there's things that feel high pressure. 

Joe: Yes. 

Brett: And then there's things that really are high pressure. Like I never procrastinated on opening my parachute in 3000 jumps. 

Sometimes I would delay till the last possible second for the extra thrill. But I wouldn't procrastinate and be like, oh, I should have done that sooner.

Joe: So isn't that a fascinating, so if you know you're gonna do the thing, you don't call it procrastination. You're going to open up that parachute.

So if you didn't know you were gonna open up that parachute, then you'd be like, why am I procrastinating? Why am I procrastinating? Why am I, as you're falling to the ground?

But instead, you're like, no, I'm gonna push this thing. I'm gonna seek out as much of a thrill as I possibly can without calling it procrastination. Again, procrastination requires the self abuse, it requires the questioning of self. Questioning your capacity to get it done, questioning if you're good enough, questioning, there has to be some sort of self-abuse in there for the procrastination to occur.

Brett: Yeah. And that's what made things different in jumping, because in that case, like as you said, I'm just in the flow, I'm in presence. I'm just doing what's happening. And when I'm writing my first invoice, trying to figure out how to run a business when I'm 19. There's a million ways that I could be afraid of getting that wrong and then judge myself for it and that is gonna be a target for the self-judgment of procrastination. 

Joe: Yes. And so that's the other thing if we are doing something that's absolutely new, that's a place where we're more likely to procrastinate. We're gonna tell ourselves we should do it, and we are not going to do it.

And oftentimes, if you're managing people, one of the things you'll notice is they'll do the thing they know how to do way before they do the thing they don't know how to do. And this really can screw up a process. 

Brett: Which is so many businesses, you see so many pitch decks where it's just 

Joe: Gosh 

Brett: and voila.

And you're like, what? But what about this step right there?

Joe: Yeah. Or you see it in people where they'll do everything they know how to do and then they'll do the thing they don't know how to do last if they do it at all.

So typically what I see is a tech CEO, who's really tech oriented, never move into sales.

And it can kill companies. Some companies really require that sales or marketing, and it'll kill the company because that's the thing they didn't know, that they didn't feel good about. Rather than doing that first which is far more successful because then you know what the customer actually wants because you've tried to sell them it and then you're building something that's for the customer instead of something that you thought was a good idea for the customer.

Brett: Yeah. Which makes me wonder how many unfinished projects is this the what's happening behind the scenes? Is that people did everything they knew how to do up until the point where they got to the thing that they didn't know and then they procrastinate on that thing and the project just sits undone.

Joe: Yeah. And so to me, this is, so this is the second part. So the first part of ending procrastination in my life was understanding that it was emotional avoidance.

And the solution to that was, what do I have to do to make this enjoyable? What's that mind state, the attitude that I have to do to make this enjoyable, and generally it was just nonjudgmentalness. It was just being like a 5-year-old. It was just playing. 

Brett: And that's another interesting aspect of what people often call procrastination, could also be called creative incubation. It can also be called waiting until the sequence and the timing and the rhythm is asking for the thing to be done.

Joe: Yeah. As a matter of fact, there's a huge amount of evidence around the creation of Epiphany. And I think it's like Newberg who wrote like the Enlightenment Brain or something like that. We'll put it in the show notes. And one really important part of doing creativity is trying to solve the problem for a while. And one really important part is to rest. Is to not do things, to have that cycle. And once you start realizing that, then it's not your brain telling you to do it. You're actually working on a good cycle, a good rhythm that actually works.

First part is realize, oh, I'm avoiding an emotional state. How do I have to enjoy the process that I'm supposedly a procrastinating?

So that was one of the big aha moments. But the second aha moment was to do that most of the time it requires an iterative mindset. Which is, the job isn't to get it done on a timeline, the job is to iterate on it.

So knowing that I can't particularly make a mistake where I can't particularly fail. This is just an iPhone one, then there's an iPhone two. This is the connection course one. This is the connection course two. We're just constantly iterating to make it better and better and better and better and never an expectation that it's supposed to be perfect or good enough. 

Brett: And you could say you're setting it up so that you're just getting positive reinforcement no matter what you do. You get positively reinforced for making forward progress of any kind and play. 

Joe: Yeah. That's right. 

Brett: Rather than setting it up where you only get positive reinforcement if you do it perfectly or right, or according to what you were told you should do or what you learned as a kid would be and then negative punishment for anything else. 

Joe: Which leads me to the third thing, you can get a mindset shift, but you can't stop people from judging you.

However, what you can do is you can actually look forward to the judgment.

And that's amazing, so the first thing is if somebody triggers me with their judgment, then there's some freedom that I know I can find, right? So somebody judges me and I have no problem with it. If somebody else judges me and it tweaks me because if I get triggered, I'm gonna learn something. Then what on earth would make me scared of being judged?

Brett: Or scared of posting or scared of sharing or speaking in front of people. 

Joe: Exactly. And they should judge me like that, judgment is actually like part of the conversation.

Now, on one level, I know that if someone's judging me, there's just something that they're not feeling, but let's say they judge me or disagree, or they have discernment, any of those things, that's part of the conversation, meaning, oh, I'm not reaching them. I'm not elucidating my ideas in a way that is useful to them. I am triggering something in them without addressing it first.

So each one of those things actually helps me refine. It's like hitting bad notes when you're practicing the guitar. Oh my God, I hit a bad note. Oh my God, I hit a bad note. That's gonna be horrible. Oh wait, no, that doesn't sound good. Let's try it again. Oh, that doesn't sound, oh, there it is. Okay. Boom boom. I can't actually do an art form without judgment and get better. Either my own or somebody else's. Discernment, I think is better than judgment, but yeah. So, I look forward to it like, oh, great, there's a way that I can get better at what I'm here to do.

At the same time, there's sometimes where I just clearly, I'm like, yeah, I'm okay with not reaching that segment of people. I'm just, I'm okay with that. Like that's not what I'm here to do. I'm not here to try to reach that segment. I'm here to try to reach this segment. So for instance, if somebody isn't interested in doing the work of transformation, I'm not interested if they care or don't care.

What I care about is the judgment of somebody who really wants the transformation. So that's the third thing. So the first thing was, what's the negative emotion i'm trying to avoid? How do I get it enjoyable? That led me to iterative mindset and then that led me to, I get to look forward to judgment, which allowed that final part of procrastination to shift.

Brett: Yeah, and one thing I'm noticing, the way that you're talking about looking forward to judgment isn't in a masochistic way. It's not setting yourself up so that when you hit a wrong note on the guitar, you get electric shock. And then let's play this harder. 

Joe: Yeah. It's about freedom.

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: Yeah. It's about that's a place where I get to be more free, where my ego gets to be a little bit more dissolved or integrated, however, whatever words you want to use. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: So it's fricking fantastic. 

Brett: So we've been talking a lot about procrastination within the task that's being done or like how you're approaching, how you're experiencing the task, the self-judgment or the projected judgment of others.

What if it's just not the thing to do? What if the procrastination is a signal that our priorities are just way off? And how do we tune into that signal and discern? 

Joe: Procrastination is always, that's not the thing to do. There's only one question. Is it, do I do it differently or is that actually the right priority?

And the self-abuse confuses both of those two. It's really hard to read the signal of either of those two if you have self-abuse, because if you're abusing yourself, it's really hard to listen to yourself. If I am at a job and I have a boss whispering in my ear, you should do that. Why didn't you do this? What? Oh my God, that's screw, oh, that's fucked up. Oh, what? That website sucks. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Really hard to listen to myself. 

But if I learn to listen to myself, it's, oh, the way I'm doing that doesn't feel right. That's great information. Or, wow, I really, my head thinks I should do it but something in me is telling me not to do it. And that was the thing is when I stopped beating myself up, which is what I was gonna go to, was the final stage as the voice in my head with that negative self-talk just did not become this repetitive, negative self-talk in my head, that disappeared. All of a sudden there was just no idea of procrastination. And when that occurred, then all of a sudden I could see things and go, oh crap, I'm not doing that. What makes me not do that? 

Brett: There was a wisdom, there was an intuition there. 

Joe: That's right. And typically, what would happen is something else would fall into place that made everything else easier. And it was the recognition that I just wasn't working on the first domino. And so what I notice is people who do not procrastinate in general pick the right first domino better than the people who procrastinate. Not because they're procrastinating, but because they're beating themselves up. Because procrastination requires that self abuse. 

Brett: Yeah. And also it seems like procrastination can be a strategy to hide other effective strategies too. For example, when I was early in doing like customer service for, I had a whole bunch of website clients and I'd get questions from them. I started to learn that if I didn't respond within the first 24 hours, often they resolved their own problem.

So I just started running a pattern of just not responding for a day. And seeing if the question was still alive. There was a deeper wisdom that was just there's a better way here that involves non-action that leads to a smoother solution. And I could operationalize that in a far more effective and, honest way with my clients.

Joe: Yeah. That's right. So oftentimes we're learning the natural rhythm of things, and that requires some experiment. That requires some not doing and some doing. And then you find that thing. It's never procrastination unless you're beating yourself up.

Brett: Yeah. Something that's coming up for me as we're talking is it seems like if I am in the story, if I'm in the worldview that I'm procrastinating, I can't be in wonder. There's a way that procrastinating is like a form of knowing. I've decided how things should be. You could look at so many different of our episodes probably and be like, this is some form of somebody has decided how they should be and things are like different from that. And rather than discovering what's happening and being in the wonder with it, they've decided something else. So procrastination seems like one form of that. 

Joe: Yes. 

Brett: Where if I've decided what my priorities should be in advance, and I'm not living alive in the moment with my body's natural rhythms, with my energy cycles throughout the day, then I can tell myself I'm procrastinating.

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: But it's either or. 

Joe: Yeah. The great thought process I love around this one is, this cool thing, which is if you are in jail, you're going out for parole and you do parole before lunch, you have something like a 20%, I dunno exactly more likelihood of getting parole than if it's after lunch.

So if you were the parole person, is it procrastinating to say, oh, let's do after lunch tomorrow morning? It's like it bends the mind to understand that our agenda is not always the most effective thing.

And when you understand that, then you produce more, quicker, better. And the most important part is what I've just learned, and I've just learned this somewhat recently, it allows me to have a lot more iterations, which makes me learn much quicker than most folks, right?

So for instance, right now, Tara's learning how to do rapid coaching and I also learned how to do rapid coaching, and so I made sure that it happened in a container where everybody could be well taken care of, and that was a priority, but, oh yeah let's just do tons of these. It's okay that people think I suck, let's do tons of these. And that's what has allowed me to get really good at it is because if I'm doing stuff in a way where I'm not worried about judgment, if I'm doing it in a highly iterative way, if I'm doing it where I'm doing the part that I don't understand first not that last, that makes me all more productive. That makes it so that I get a lot more stuff done. 

Brett: So we've been talking a lot about procrastination on a personal level. And something about what you're talking about here is bringing up for me how it can happen in an organization or in a relationship where even if you're not procrastinating, you don't see yourself as procrastinating.

Let's say you're just a kid in a family and you're doing your kid thing you're playing, which is exactly what you should be doing at certain stages of kiddom. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: And let's say you have a parent who thinks he should be doing something different. 

Joe: Yeah. Like you as a kid. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: Hence why I brought that up.

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 

Brett: So personal experience. 

Joe: Yeah. Tell us a story.

Brett: Yeah. The first thing that comes to mind is just the visceral experience of sitting in a classroom, looking outside at the day, wanting to go play. And so there's this mismatch, between what I naturally would do and what you could say people older and perhaps more experienced in the world might have guided me towards doing, to prepare myself for the world that I was gonna live in. 

Joe: Did guide you. 

Brett: Did guide me. Yeah. 

Joe: Pressured you. Criticize you for not doing. 

Brett: With pressure and criticism, sometimes with invitation and creativity and really listening.

Some mixture of those two things, but I definitely experienced a lot in my childhood, particularly with the public school system. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: The internalization of the idea that whatever I want isn't right. So you can almost draw that conclusion at that stage that the thing that I do want is probably not the thing.

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: And then you're fucked. 

Joe: Right. 

Brett: That takes some deep unlearning. 

Joe: That's right. That's right. That's the unlearning that helps you see through the critical voice in your head, right? 

That's that unlearning. The unlearning of, oh, I can actually trust myself and that the critical self-talk is actually slowing me down and making me less effective.

It's not doing what it was supposed to do or it's a very ineffective way of doing what it's supposed to do. That is correct. The deep unlearning. It's what made us, we wouldn't shame our kids because that's teaching them not to listen to themselves. We didn't say great job that was amazing that we wouldn't reward our kids for stuff that we wanted them to do because that was also helping them not listen to themselves. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: And so for us it was like an incredibly important thing to do that, but yeah, that's right. That's the core of it, right? Yeah. That's the core of self-abuse and therefore, that's the core of procrastination. 

Brett: Right. So if all my procrastination is the result of my own self-criticism, self-judgment, which is, you could even say it's like the residue of misguided guidance. 

Joe: Right? Yeah. 

Brett: That I've received, which is to say, somebody who in their best heart wanted the best for me, and they were scared and because of that fear, they felt they had to control.

Joe: Yeah, that's right. 

Brett: And lost connection with me. Lost attunement and then I felt managed and learned that I couldn't trust myself. 

Joe: Or them. Yeah. And so there's actually, like a lot of, the funny thing is there's a lot of research about this particular thing, your particular thing. Which is, it's really not a great thing for a kid to learn intellectual stuff until they have learnt their body or their will that they have like fully gotten into their body. So they do this test where occupational therapists will do it, where they'll have a kid draw a picture of themselves and they start by just drawing a head and then they draw a head in a body and then they draw a head in a body and hand or the arms and legs and then hands, and then feet, and it basically tells you how much of their body they actually feel, how much they're in their body.

It turns out it's no good to teach people the headpiece before the body piece. And so it is that fear and therefore that control that happens and the solution to it for the parents who did it, or the teachers who did it, was to listen to you deeply. The solution for you now, for anybody now is to listen to themselves deeply, the solution, the attunement the solution for procrastination on some level is to actually listen to yourself really deeply. Not the internal self negative abuse, but actually listen to yourself really deeply about oh, what, what would make this feel great? What do I need to do first? That is actually the solution in all the levels of it.

Brett: Yeah, and I think the part of the trap here, the local optima people find themselves stuck in is that they sit down for a project and if they look into themselves, the first thing they're gonna find is the discomfort. They're gonna find all those years of built up grief, anger, shame, fear. And so it's much easier just to look to the head and say, what does the head think I should do? And then you end up with the should. Which is very different from just really checking in. And what if I check in with my entire body, with my being right now, what holistically is the next movement? 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: What is the next brush stroke? What's the next word? 

Joe: Yeah. And the amazing thing is it actually doesn't take that long.

Meaning if you're telling yourself you should do something and you're procrastinating, it's gonna take you a lot longer than it is to actually feel the emotion. Even you might not get through all the grief, but just like grief for an hour and then go see what it's like to do the work. 

Brett: Yeah. Or just hang out in the discomfort of the fear of judgment.

Joe: Yeah, exactly. 

Brett: Which is the, I think there's a distinction to be made there, because somebody could hear this and say, oh, I just need to sit down and feel all the judgment then, which could lead to actually just judging oneself and like really feeling the internalization of the projected judgment that they're afraid of. And there's something I think that's a little bit different, which is 

Joe: Oh yeah, it's feeling what happens in you if someone judges you. 

Brett: Yeah, 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: Not just sit down and judge yourself really hard. 

Joe: Exactly. Yeah. That disconnection is painful and sad and it reminds you and rhymes with the disconnection that happened to you when somebody was telling you had to be perfect or do something that didn't actually correspond with who you were.

And that's what we're actually scared of. The judgment that we got from our parents or from our teachers, it's oh, we don't wanna feel that kind of abandonment again. And so feel the abandonment, feel the lack of connection, and then the judgment becomes less and less scary. 

Brett: Or you can abandon yourself a thousand times a day. 

Joe: By procrastinating.

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: Awesome. Yeah. What a pleasure. So I actually have, a couple of exercises that I think are really useful for procrastination. So people who are working on this stuff actually have a couple of experiments because there's one thing to think about it in your head and to have this understanding, but there's a whole nother level when you actually start doing some of those experiments.

Brett: Everybody. If you're listening and you want those experiments that Joe's talking about and some other resources on procrastination, you can check out the link in the show notes, or you can also scan the QR code on your screen right now. Thank you, Joe. 

Joe: Yeah, man, 

Brett: it's a lovely episode. I'm glad we finally got around to it. And when I say finally, I say because it was just the right time. 

Joe: You know the, here's the crazy part. It was. The crazy part is it was because we did, we had the YouTube video on procrastination that went really big, and now we actually have all those people who are interested in procrastination can listen to this podcast, which they probably would never listen to otherwise, because it would've been what episode? If we did it the first time, it would've been like episode 40 or something like that. 

Brett: Everything in its time. 

Joe: Everything in its time. 

Brett: Yeah. 

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