Joe: At some point, you have to give up and just be like, oh, it's just what I am. If I just allow, it all happens. If I just receive, it all happens.
Brett: Welcome to the Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease.
I'm Brett Kistler here today with my co-host Joe Hudson. Joe.
Joe: Hey, Brett. What's up?
Brett: I'm just feeling so much joy after the week-long retreat we just ran.
Joe: Yeah.
Brett: And the question just comes up like, why the fuck don't we just feel joy all the time?
Joe: Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. Is that what you wanna do an episode on? You wanna do an episode on why the fuck we don't feel joy all the time?
Brett: Yeah. I don't wanna assume that somebody listening isn't feeling joy all the time 'cause if so, roll with it.
But it's just, I noticed this thing where so much of the work that we do points towards feeling joy, points towards bringing more joy, allowing more joy, recognizing more joy in life. And also so much of the consulting work that we do in business or in relationships or coaching, the things that people think they want are the things that they think are gonna get them joy. So it's the end goal everywhere. It may be about the KPIs or the money or the level of conflict in my relationship or the level of, cohesion in my team or the politics in my family, whatever. All of those things are really meant to, if everything is aligned, I would hope to have more joy.
So we've done an entire emotion series. We haven't yet talked about joy and i'd love to talk about joy this time.
Joe: Let's do it. Let's do it.
Brett: Great. So let's start. What is it? What is joy?
Joe: Yeah, so I actually looked it up once and usually I have my own definitions for words, that's how we often start an episode.
But this one is actually, I just love the, I can't remember, Webster's or whatever dictionary it was. The answer was like a lot of happiness and pleasure. And the way that I worked, that I'll just do the experiment. So I literally, when I did that, I was like, okay, so I'm gonna feel happiness. I'm gonna close my eyes, remember a time that I felt happiness, what I would call happiness. And I invite everybody listening to do this, just close your eyes, take a moment, feel that moment where you had happiness and then take pleasure in it.
And that's joy. As soon as I did that, I'm like, oh, wow. That's an incredibly accurate description of joy. It is,
Brett: oh, that's so interesting.
Joe: Happiness with pleasure.
Brett: There's like a head, heart, gut thing going on there too. It's like I can have intellectually the idea that I have what I want and that means nothing to me, emotionally or physically. I can have happiness, which is, an emotional experience but the pleasure is when it really lands in the body.
Joe: That's right. Yeah. And that's what it does. It's like happiness experienced in the whole body.
Brett: Huh?
Joe: That's another way you could explain it. But it is, it's like an embodied level of happiness and there's a lot of pleasure in it.
Brett: Huh. Thanks Miriam Webster.
Joe: I just love that definition 'cause as soon as I read it I'm like, let's see if that's true. And I was like, oh shit. That's a great description.
Brett: Wow. Okay. So how would we make there be more joy in our life? What makes the spectrum from less joy to more joy? Let's map that out a little bit.
Joe: It's really counterintuitive. So I'm sure people in the podcast have heard me say it, joy is the matriarch of a family of emotions and she won't come into a house where her children aren't welcome. So what I'm saying there is that if you don't feel your emotions all the way through, then there's no room for joy.
The other way to think about it is you're a yard for boats and you have one dock, and if you don't move the other boats in and out, there's no room for joy. The only thing is that joy is really not a boat that comes in, it's the water underneath. It's like that's the natural state of being alive.
It's the state that requires no effort. Pleasure is available every minute of every day. Joy is available. Just, a good deep breath in can be incredibly joyful, can be incredibly pleasurable. Similarly, just watching the sensations in your body move is the definition of pleasure by a guy named Lowen, like the awareness of he says energy, I just say sensation, so the awareness of sensation moving through the body.
Exactly. If you just do that it's immediately pleasurable. It's just always available to us. It's just if we haven't felt the other stuff all the way through, then we just can't seem to find it, though it's always there.
Brett: Yeah. And so when you say that and you speak to the allowing of emotions, the family of emotions being welcome.
Joe: Yeah.
Brett: What that seems to point to for me is resistance, like the level of resistance in the system, almost like an electrical circuit. The presence or lack of resistance allows the sensations, electricity, the energy, whatever it is to be moving so you can be aware of it moving, which would bring in that counterintuitive correlation with the emotions that we don't associate with joy. The being able to feel those fully makes us, gives us more capacity to feel joy.
Joe: Yeah. That's one way to describe it, and it's absolutely accurate. The other way is to say, if you feel anger all the way through it, you find out it's like joy.
Brett: Yeah.
Joe: Or like the anger felt all the way through without any resistance is a different sensation than the anger that we call anger that we normally resist. Same with fear, same with anxiety, same with, all those emotions. There's something that happens when you feel it all the way through where the sensation actually changes and it's just like a current. I love that metaphor, which is joy is energy running through the circuit with minimal resistance. The more resistance, the less it feels like joy.
Brett: Yeah. Yeah. So joy is the natural state.
Joe: Yeah.
Brett: And then the ways we try to manage our natural state, the ways we try to resist it, the ways that it's not enough, the ways that it's too much.
Joe: Yeah.
Brett: Those become the ways that we create separation from our joy.
Joe: Yeah and it's interesting 'cause what typically, if you take that metaphor to the next conclusion, it's like when we have resistance in the line, what most humans do in the emotional line is they go, oh, that's uncomfortable. I'm gonna resist more to try to make it stop. And then joy becomes further and further away when the actual more productive thing is to say, oh, I am going to feel into that emotional place because that'll reduce the amount of friction, resistance.
Brett: Yeah. The second question being like, what is the joy that I could find in this experience, this feeling? Can open that up somewhat.
Joe: And you gotta watch out for that one a little bit, right? Like we all met that person in college who was like, great, everything's great. It's like they're pretending happiness so that they might one day actually be happy. That doesn't work. Like unfortunately that doesn't work.
There is like an a practicing that you can do to oh wow, I can take pleasure in this moment. I can take joy from this experience, whatever, this flower, for this conversation that I'm having with you. Oh, I can take joy in all of that. That's amazing and wonderful and trying to force yourself into that without feeling the other emotions is just another form of resistance. So it gets a little tricky.
Brett: Yeah. Like an example that comes up for me right now is when you told me about your daughter saying, wow, I didn't know heartbreak could feel so good.
Joe: Right? Yeah, exactly.
And we saw it at our retreat this week. It's like the more people just felt whatever their emotion was, the more they were just like hanging out in joy and love and pleasure. Like it was just like, and by the end of it they're like, how is this possible? That's, that's what we got to see. And that answers your question at the top, which is like, what makes us not like that all the time is because we are managing, for those of us that are less and less, we're managing our emotional experience, our reality all the time.
Brett: Yeah. And while they were in their joy, they were also more fluid. They were also speaking and acting more intuitively, more naturally.
Joe: Yes.
Brett: More in flow. And so this kind of relates back to what we were pointing to about the head, heart, gut thing here about this being really embodied. How does joy, in your view, relate to being in our head?
Joe: Yeah. Like I said before, I think there's an embodied feeling of joy. Joy can't be done without pleasure. Pleasure can't be done without the body. So I think that there's a part of it. I do also notice that when I'm in a state of joy, like all three of those things are in alignment or online. I'm not coming from one place to the other place. Happiness seems to be more, can be more in the head. You can be happy and be cut off, but you can't really have joy and be cut off. So that's the main piece. Yeah.
Brett: Yeah. And along the lines of something else you had just said about forcing it. I'm imagining some people listening and they're like I want to feel joy. I try to feel joy all the time. I'm just not finding it. I'm trying to feel it, not resist it. What's going on?
Joe: Yeah. That's I hear that one all the time. The main thing is if you're trying to feel it, then you're making some, then you're creating resistance.
The trying is in itself, the resistance that prevents it. And it also assumes that it's hard to get to try means that it's something that isn't your natural state. It's not like the current flowing freely. And so you put more constriction in the line and it drives it further and further away.
But there's also another nuance there, which is, I hear it in a slightly different way, which is, I want to feel joy. Why wait, joy isn't like a difficult thing. Like, why wouldn't I feel it? Like I wanna feel it. But actually it's actually, I find more challenging for people to feel joy than it is for them to feel anger or sadness or fear.
And just as a great way to experience this is do this experiment when you go home or when you have an extra five minutes, and just notice the immense amount of joy you can have, just taking deep breaths or just feeling the sensations in your body. You'll notice it's expansive.
You'll notice you relax into it and you'll notice you can't even maintain it for five minutes. You'll notice that like your mind goes to do something else, find some sort of problem. Because to feel joy is, it brings up a lot of fear in people. If you really allow that joy in, that expansiveness brings a lot of fear into people, and so we say we want it, but just by saying we want it or just by saying we're trying to get it, we're actually, that's our way to push it away because it's scary.
Because you don't say oh, I wanna breathe. I have to try to breathe. If you say that, if you're like, Ooh, I wanna breathe, I have to try to breathe, you can feel you start constricting the air and breathing is just something we assume happens. It's natural joy is the same way and, but if we fully allow it, it's so expansive that it becomes quite scary 'cause it starts to dissolve our identity.
Brett: Yeah. I'm imagining right now just closing my eyes and picturing everything I ever wanted happening, manifesting whatever word may be. And then immediately there's something that goes wrong. Something that's no, it couldn't quite be like that because either I couldn't envision something so beautiful without missing something important or that's just not how reality works, or all these stories would come in. And I think that's something that you were just speaking to. It brings up other feelings. Because joy feels safe, this is something we've said before, is when it feels safe, all the unloved parts come up to be loved.
When there is love, the unloved parts come up to be loved. So if there's joy, there's safety and the other feelings will come up. We'll be like, okay, great, but there's joy. But what about this pain? What about this hurt? What about this heartbreak? What about this fear? What about this anxiety?
Joe: Yeah.
Brett: Can I have that too?
Joe: I think there's two things that you're speaking to there. The first one is, I don't know how many people, highly successful people I worked with, who were like, I've got everything I wanted, but I'm not happy. I'm not, I don't experience joy. And there, there's that aspect.
The other aspect is this idea of when it's safe, when we feel safe, when we feel love, the other stuff comes up. So on the second piece, which is really easy to speak to if you have kids, if you have like young kids or when you were a young kid, and let's say you were like away from home and you had to deal with a whole bunch of stuff, when you came home and you felt safe, is when the temper tantrum happens. Like I used to come home and I'd be like, why do I get all the fucking temper tantrums? 'cause the kids felt safe and with me and oh, here's the place that I get to let go.
Brett: It's like bottling it up the rest of the time until you're outta the pressure cooker and you have space to release. Yeah.
Joe: Yeah. So somatically two things actually happen that I think are scary about joy. The first one is it becomes so expansive that the felt sense of self dissipates. If you really feel the joy of breathing for five or 10 minutes, you'll notice that the sense of self is like, becomes more and more universal and less contained as like this thing that's against this thing and for this thing and thinks this thing and does this thing and that's scary.
The other thing that's scary is when you're feeling that sense of safety, pleasure, then the stuff that hasn't been dealt with starts coming up to be dealt with just like it would with a kid. And so both of those two things make it scary to allow ourselves to feel joy.
And it's what makes people push it away all the time. And they do it by thinking they have to earn it. They do it by thinking, once I've quit smoking, once I do this great habit, once I make this much money, once I date this kind of person, then, but it never happens. And because it's just the experience of joy that's scary as shit for many people.
And which is why I say to practice pleasure and joy is great because it actually teaches you to feel that experience and it also brings a whole bunch of emotions undealt with up to the surface. So it's great and it's not something that you can fake. It's something that has to be felt. You have to feel everything to get there consistently where you're just like actually living a really joyful life on a regular basis.
Brett: Yeah, I feel like there's another level of what makes joy scary and it's maybe a subset of the one you talked to about with identity.
Joe: Yeah.
Brett: But as you, as your sense of identity starts to dissolve, also your ability to predict your actions and the results dissolves.
So I think that's one of the things that makes that so scary is that if I fully allow my joy, I lose the sense of who I am, which means I can't predict my behavior and their reactions. And that leads to oh, I can feel joy under certain controlled circumstances. I can go to a retreat and my phone is away and I can feel joy there if I know that I'm not gonna accidentally leak that joy out into my company or my family and then all of a sudden have the consequences of being authentic.
Joe: Yeah.
Brett: Come back to me. And I think that also shows up a lot of times when people end up managing their transformation, where they're like, okay, yeah, I want to, let's kill the old ego.
Joe: Totally.
Brett: Let's transform, but also I wanna make sure that I do it into a certain particular new, larger shaped box that I define in advance.
Joe: Yeah.
Brett: So I know I'll be safe there too.
Joe: Yeah, I think that's true. I think it what, like the way that moves typically is there's a moment of oh fuck, I have no idea who I'd be, what I would do.
We saw it at the retreat. Oh my gosh, I'm like, scared, if I let this all in, I'm going to divorce my wife or quit my job, or blah, blah, blah. Like all those fears come up because you don't, you can't predict it. I think that the, what happens eventually is that there's this great phrase, and I think I've used it before, but it's, I think it's Tibetan, and you talk about mind as wide as the sky and action is fine as barley flour.
What you start to notice when you're living that way is there's actually like just this like very clear truth of what you want to do in that moment. You can't predict what it's gonna be, but the outcomes are far more predictable because you're like, oh, when I react in my truth, when I act in my truth, then my world reflects that alignment and so I know what world I'm gonna be living in even if I can't predict this, what I'm gonna do or what this exact result will be. The long-term result is very predictable. It's like investing in an index fund in a stock market, right? Which is you can't tell the ups and downs, over 10 years where it's headed and it, and so pretty soon that fear dies off. But there is a very palpable couple moments, days, weeks, maybe even a year, where you're like, I don't even know how to, I don't even know what I'm gonna go buy at the supermarket.
Brett: Yeah. This is something we've talked about with principles as well, where it's, you might lose your capacity to, or you might lose the story that you can predict, outcomes on a individual basis, but across a portfolio of decisions, it's far more about where you're gonna end up. And so that kind of brings up an interesting symmetry here of living a joyful life and living a principled life, how synergistic those concepts are and how they really serve each other.
Joe: It's a great question. What I notice is, I know people who live principled lives who are pretty happy, I'm not sure joyful, but I don't know anybody who lives a joyful life, who doesn't live principled.
So I think that principles can get you closer to joy, but they can't ensure it but Joy ensures principles, just from my noticing of people.
Brett: Yeah. I imagine you could live principles that are not aligned with you, and that would lead away from joy.
Joe: Correct? Absolutely. Or if the principles are, say, built around how to be most productive instead of, oh, living the life that you wanna live. So I think that, but even that, like the people that I know who like run businesses based on principle they're the happier leaders that I know.
So there is something about the ease of principles, because almost everybody who lives principally at some point also has the lean in principle, right? Because what a principle does is it makes you feel into the shit that you don't wanna feel into when it's inconvenient, which is really the same thing that we're saying gets joy, which is leaning into the shit that you don't particularly wanna lean into, feeling it, allowing for it.
So most principles, most sets of principles do the same thing where there's some principle that says, Hey i'm gonna lean into, I'm gonna open the drawer in the kitchen that nobody wants to look in, or I'm going to embrace the intensity, or I'm gonna, say the problem when it's there.
There's always some principle that helps you do something that you don't wanna particularly do because you know it's beneficial. So I think that's another place where they have overlap.
Brett: Yeah. Yeah. And so both of these bring up the idea of fake it till we make it.
Where you addressed this earlier of forcing joy is not the same as allowing your experience so fully that the joy emerges. But also when we're talking about principles and we're talking about living a joyful life, those could be something that easily gets forced or becomes a way that we manage ourselves.
And I'm curious to like, to what extent the, that can be helpful or useful in some way, or if there's a nuance here that we can share about faking it till you're making it with regards to joy.
Joe: There's lots of ways that discipline can get the engine running. The management can get the engine running but at some point you have to do the downhill slide, like you have to let gravity take care of stuff. So trying to force yourself to feel joy, not very effective, but like having discipline of reading, living a principled life can be helpful. Having the discipline of practicing pleasure, allowing yourself to feel pleasure and learn to allow that to expand you and stretch you like a yoga class can be helpful.
So there are there like saying, oh, I'm gonna feel my emotions every day for 20, 30 minutes and I'm gonna let my body move and I'm going to say what I gotta say, yell what I gotta yell, shake where I have to shake. That's also gonna be incredibly helpful. And that can be a disciplined approach.
But as soon as you start using it all to, you try you're pushing like the inner energetic is I have to get there rather than I am already there. Oh, I don't, all I have to do is take off the layers of shit and then there, that's an attitude of it's already there within me that is gonna be necessary.
You can't get there by trying the whole time. And you see this in Zen and meditation too, where, particularly Zen meditation, they'll literally just keep on adjusting the way you sit. No, sit more like this. Sit like this. So you get so fucking intense just, I can't fucking do it anymore.
And then you have that moment of awakening, then you have that moment of understanding and so you can go that way too, where you just try so fucking hard that you finally give up. I've seen that work as well, but at some point you have to give up and just be like, oh, it's just what I am, and I just, if I just allow, it all happens.
If I just receive, it all happens. Literally take a deep breath and enjoy it. It requires fucking nothing.
Brett: Just feeling the difference in my body when I use the words it's what I am versus it's what I feel. Which makes me come back to the difference between happiness and joy, or even equanimity and joy, contentment and joy. And on that axis of embodied versus just an emotional or in the head experience. What do you have to say about those distinctions?
Joe: Yeah, contentment, equanimity. There are different things like I know that there's a, through like non-dual or awakening practices or meditation practices, you can get to an equanimity where there's just a, there's a stillness that never leaves.
There's like the eye of the storm that you always have accessible. And I know people who have that and are depressed. There's a famous monk meditation teacher who talks openly about his depression. And typically that's because, in my experience of the people that I've met like that is they have learnt the equanimity, but they haven't actually allowed the emotions to be without resistance.
The meditation has become an emotional management tool as well as a tool for equanimity and so there's a distinction between that peace and equanimity, which is a wonderful, beautiful, amazing thing and allowing all the emotions to move, which some people in meditation actually, that's what happens.
I had a person that I studied with a lot, his name was Adyashanti, his teacher talked about like showing up at meditation retreat with tears streaming down like the waterworks turned on. I had many meditation retreats where a huge amount of emotion moved through me. So it can be that way too.
But it's that, that creates the joy. It's something else that creates the equanimity, that the recognition that you are awareness, that you are not this ego, that recognition creates a huge amount of equanimity in the system. It doesn't create joy, particularly. Not without the emotional movement, without the emotional fluidity. Yeah. I love that.
Brett: Thanks for that distinction. So we've often talked about how, enjoyment, when we're enjoying something, when we're in enjoyment, we're learning faster, we're more creative, we're more productive, we're more innovative. We're getting along better with our peers, we're sharing ourselves more vulnerably. We're more likely to speak our truth. All of these things that are really effective towards, say, productivity. And I noticed that we don't really measure joy in a company very often. It's not like one of the major, KPIs that are being measured. And I wonder why not, and I'd love to talk a little bit about how joy affects productivity.
Joe: Yeah. So I think there's a couple reasons why people don't, I think most people who are deeply ambitious are ambitious because not all, but many people are deeply ambitious because they're striving to get to joy. They're thinking like, oh, if I do X, y, and Z, this and this will happen.
At least that's how they get started. Sometimes they just fall. I think some of the greats actually more just are in love with the game of it all like the building the Legos, like the coolness of oh, I'm just in my thing, doing my thing. But, so for that reason, I think a lot of people don't see the joy. Though, if you ask them and you say, oh, tell me about the best team that you've ever been a part of, they'll tell you they enjoyed it. So there, there's definitely, you can't be in a great team, ah, this team was excellent and I hated it. So they'll know that. I think that the other piece is that enjoyment looks slower. If I'm really gonna stop and I'm gonna enjoy writing my emails, I'm gonna feel the sensation and allow it and allow the pleasure of writing the email and what it feels like in my body and how I wanna say the thing and express the joy in the email, it's slower. Like I can write an email much quicker than that.
However, I probably am gonna write a lot less emails. My relationships are gonna be a lot better. There's gonna be a lot less problems to handle. So anything that takes discipline, it's a long-term result that you're getting. It's not the short-term result that you're getting. Like exercise doesn't feel quite as good upfront, but makes you feel great through the day.
Brett: Yeah, it's like I've heard said in the Navy Seals slow is smooth and smooth is fast.
Joe: Yeah, exactly. So it's a little bit slower, but it definitely gets you where you wanna be quicker. So that's interesting. I think that's one of the other reasons that it, it isn't thought about as much.
Brett: It might even be slower because you're actually there, you're actually processing it.
Joe: Correct.
Brett: You're not skipping from thing to thing. And then later on, like where was I? What balls did I set in motion and why? Total loss of context, just lost in the to-do list.
Joe: I'll give you a great example of this, like working with somebody who's an executive at one of the big companies, one of the big Silicon Valley companies, and talking about their meetings and how all the executives are multitasking through their meetings.
So everybody feels more productive, but it, like so many emails afterwards, nobody's enjoying it. If they were all sitting down and said, okay, the number one thing is that we are gonna learn to have a meeting that we all enjoy having, that meeting would be super effective. So it's a really great mechanism to figure out how to make great decisions, to figure out how to run great meetings.
So it's lovely. It's just not particularly thought about. I think it's often because most people in business, most people in general potentially feel like they're, to have joy, it has to be earned. Like you have to be a value to have joy even though they've been a value for 20 years and still don't have a deep life of joy.
You know what I mean?
Brett: Yeah. Which makes it possible to question whether somebody actually wants joy or whether they actually want to recreate their emotional background of seeking joy.
Joe: Exactly. That's the thing is like the seeking of joy is the way that we push it away.
Brett: The joy itself is scary.
Joe: Yeah, exactly 'cause it's scary.
Which I think is the other reason why people don't use it as a thing. I also don't think most people think it's possible to create a joyful life.
Brett: Yeah. I can also imagine a whole bunch of collective eye rolls from, a whole bunch of new employees coming onto a team and they're like, okay, we're gonna be tracking your joy. Oh. Great. There's gotta be a Dilbert comic about that.
Joe: Yeah. See that would be like the perfect, I would love that if I was like, oh, we're gonna track your joy. And they're like, oh, great. I'd be like, okay, let's start there. What makes you say that? What makes you not happy that this company wants you to have a joyous work experience?
Brett: Yeah. Which segues into another question is like how does joy relate to leadership? You're the one running these meetings and you want to have a meeting that's a joyful meeting. You have a team and you want to see what would be in the way of the team valuing joy.
Joe: It's really good, but it's not necessary. Meaning if you are really focused on how do you enjoy your job as a manager, then it's really good. If you're asking your team, how do we enjoy ourselves better? I think that's really good. I think all of that is really useful. However, you can be a leader who's driven by we're just gonna be the best in the world and that can also inspire people. So I think there's other ways to do it. Where the joy is, like the second level oh, we really enjoy winning, so let's win. Enjoyment is like the second level. If you are like just about getting it done and oh my God, we're scared and we have to avoid this bad thing and there's no joy whatsoever in your management then you're gonna have a neurotic organization that makes a lot of mistakes and spins often without direction.
Brett: It sounds like a second order effect. If you have a company where the value is we like to win and you hire people who enjoy winning, then you're gonna have joy and a culture aligned in winning. If you hire a bunch of people who don't enjoy winning 'cause they feel guilty or something there's something else going on there or they enjoy something entirely different and winning doesn't matter to them, then you might have less joy in the team.
Joe: Correct. What's interesting is like when you think about our team and our business, like enjoyment is a huge important part, winning is not. Yet we win. We're constantly growing and touching more people and, but for us it's like we would cut off an entire part of our business if we weren't enjoying it, even if it was profitable. So it's an interesting, it's an interesting aspect of there is an alignment with it, but joy can be a first or a second order effect. Both of them are possible and still have great, be a great leader. I don't think it's possible to be a great leader if you're not considering joy at all.
Brett: Yeah, great. So I'd love to close this episode out with just some little nugget that listeners can do after they've heard this, something they can do in their day, some little reminder, some practice, some exercise.
Joe: Enjoy your breath for five minutes straight. Or if it doesn't have to be your breath, make it be doing the dishes or make it be just watching the sensations of your body move, see what it is to, or a flower, just take something and see what it is to just allow the enjoyment to persist in your system, to stay focused on the enjoyment of being alive.
Like just aliveness is joyful, and so allow that to just stretch your capacity to feel it. Notice how the sense of stealth starts to evaporate somatically when you feel it, when you really allow that joy.
Brett: Yeah and what resistance comes up? What kind of pleasure, anxiety or foreboding joy? What is at the edges of that boundary for you?
Joe: Yeah, then feel that, 'cause that's the stuff that feels safe enough to show up and be felt.
Brett: Beautiful and joyful. Thank you, Joe.
Joe: Yeah. Thanks for bringing up this topic, how fun. I really appreciate it. I'm hoping maybe one day we'll also do one on excitement, which is a whole nother.
Brett: Yeah, let's do that.
Joe: Okay. Awesome.
Brett: All right. And thank you everybody for listening. Check us out on X, got it right this time. I didn't say the T word. Joe is @FU_JoeHudson. I am @AirKistler, K-I-S-T-L-E-R, and we are @artofaccomp. See you next time.
Joe: All right, take care.