Passive Aggression

Joe: When we allow ourselves to be aggressive to ourselves then we allow, almost in kind, other people to be that aggressive with us, we expect it. As we learn to love ourselves, then we're not gonna accept it from the outside world. 

Brett: Welcome to The Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease.

I'm Brett Kistler here today with my co-host, Joe Hudson. Hi, Joe. 

Joe: Hi, Brett. Good to see you. 

Brett: Yeah, good to see you too. All right, so we do a lot of work with anger in this work, and one thing that I've seen you say a lot of times in courses or even in a coaching session, is let's make the passive aggression active.

Let's like really bring it forward. And so we've done a lot of talking about anger and how to move that aggression and I wanna now take this episode and go into the passive aggression and see what it is. How does it show up in people's lives? 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: I wanna really go into the kind of the nitty gritty into the subtlety, how we can work with it. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: How's that sound? 

Joe: Sounds great. I would love that. 

Brett: Awesome. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: Let's do it. So just to start with, I wanna really just define our term. How do you define passive aggression? 

Joe: The form of aggression that triggered me for the longest period of time in my life, I think.

Passive aggression is just, you could almost call it covert aggression, but it's basically aggression that's not being owned as aggression. Sometimes not by the person who's doing it, sometimes not by the person who it's being done to, but it's basically, I'm upset, but I'm not allowed to be angry and therefore I'm going to be passively angry.

So I'm going to figure out a way to attack you that isn't fully admitting to myself or to somebody else that it's an attack and that's what it is. And it's typically based in fear and the fact that it's passive is typically based in the fear of being outwardly aggressive about something.

Brett: Got it. So the difference between passive and active aggression is in some sense the owning of it? 

Joe: Yeah. It's the recognition. Some people can own passive aggression but they're still gonna hide it. It's how good are you with your own anger, your own aggression, your, to some degree, your own ambition. Like the more that you're able to be in love with those aspects of yourself, the less likely it's gonna be in that you're gonna be passive in your aggression. 

Brett: So what would be the difference then, if the definition there is around the awareness, around the owning of it, what's the difference between passive aggression and somebody who's like just like straight up screaming and they're not even aware that they're mad?

I'm not mad. You're mad. What's the distinction there from passive aggression to that form of aggression. 

Joe: Yeah. That's great. Yeah, the passive aggression is gonna find ways that are not direct at the aggression. So I'm not mad, you're mad, blah, blah, blah. That's very direct. It's boom, here you are. Bam. You're the problem. I'm not the problem. That kind of a thing. Passive aggression is like guilt. Guilt's a perfect example of passive aggression. I am going to. Try to manipulate you, needle you, which is an aggressive act. I'm gonna try to get you to do something, but I'm gonna do it in a way that I look like I'm the victim.

And oftentimes, not all, but oftentimes in passive aggression, the person who's doing it is in the role of the victim. I'm stuck. Woe is me. Can't be me doing it. Like I'm the one that's being hurt here. And if you really want to see someone. Go from passive aggression to aggression, take away their victim role, like and I, and we can talk about that later, but that's the thing is that it's very much not direct. And so guilt is a great example of passive aggression because you're trying, you're being aggressive in the fact that you're trying to change somebody that you're trying to tell them how to be or make them be a particular way but you're not doing it with any kind of ownership at all. You're not saying, Hey I want you to be this way, or God damn, I'm gonna yell at you if you're not this way. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: It's that. 

Brett: Yeah. So what I'm hearing there is that like the active aggression is I want to change you and I'm aware of it, and that's like what I'm clear is happening and the passive aggression is I'm trying to change you or get you to do something and pretend that I'm not. I don't want you to see that I'm trying to do this to change you. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: Okay. 

Joe: Yeah. And maybe they don't even see it themselves and sometimes they do. Like sometimes, mothers will sit around and talk about how good of guilt tripper they are, and some people will guilt trip you and they won't even know that they're doing it. Or it'll be hidden from them that they're doing it. Or they'll think that, yeah, I'm doing it, but it's my only choice. There'll be like those kinds of thought processes that happen. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: What's interesting to me about it is that typically if a child was raised with passive aggression, it's incredibly hard for them to see that it's happening to them.

So if mom's guilt tripping them, they're gonna feel like they've done something wrong and Mom has, is woe is me poor victim, something bad has happened to her, that they're selfish and that it's very hard for them to see oh actually my mom's being aggressive. Just in a passive form. My mom's manipulating me in a passive form. My mom is attacking me in a passive form. 

Brett: Yeah. And so of course that can continue on into adulthood as well. So now my next question is like, what are some examples of passive-aggressive behavior that we might encounter in our everyday life?

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: Including some examples people might not expect. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: They've been swimming in it. 

Joe: Guilt talking about somebody behind their back, certain, like in a way that has some, like there's ways of talking about somebody and being like, I'm processing this so that I can fall in love with them more or I can learn to like them or resolve my own issue.

But if you're talking about them as a way to turn somebody's opinion on them or to make yourself above them or just prove that you're better than, or whatever. Then that's like an incredible form of passive aggression. Being late can be a form of passive aggression particularly perpetual lateness. Particularly perpetual lateness for a particular kind of person, right? Like the, I know people that are always on time, but always late for their mother, as an example. Saying you're gonna do something and not doing it is another one. Confusion can be one where like you never give the answer, you're always get confused and so the person, 

Brett: Playing dumb.

Joe: It's like needling is another one. Just like little small sarcasms, little undermining things is another great example of ways to be passive-aggressive. And in fact, I have a story about this. This is a a lovely story. So my mom and dad, they had a relationship where my dad yelled and my mom was like, apparently the victim and she would feel like, why did I put up with this? Or why am I putting up with this? But she would just like, constantly stay. And then my dad died and my mom came up to the house and my girls after two days looked at me and they're like, why do I wanna yell at your mom? They're it's so strange that we don't want to yell at anybody, but we want to yell at your mom what's going on there?

I'm like, yeah, my mom's needling you. My mom's like giving you these little itty bitty jabs that you can hardly tell they're happening. Like tick, tick tick, tick. And then pretty soon you get like really frustrated and so she's inviting your aggression with her passive aggression. And that was the thing that was happening in almost all relationship where there's somebody who's really aggressive, there's a passive aggressive relationship that's going on.

So that's a like a perfect example of it. And it's so subtle that my kids couldn't even see that they were being needled. And it was just like needling and it was comparing, oh, you do this, but you do that. It was like these little comparisons that were happening and 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: Yeah. It's an example.

Brett: I think that can especially happen in a relationship with somebody that you love or that you want to love. You want to feel love from them and so you just plow under those little needles and just oh, they didn't mean that, or that's not what they meant. Like seeing the good and them, but not really seeing necessarily the aggression or not feeling the hurt. 

Joe: And also, yeah, there's so many things. So if somebody's in that place where they're passive-aggressive and they're not really, you're gonna have to admit that to yourself, for you to see that this is what's going on.

One is you're like, you have to question their love for you. There's that questioning that goes on. Two is if you question it, there's a good chance they're gonna get really aggressive. And so to some degree it's so I can either have my mom needle me or yell at me. There's some version of that also happens, oh, what's gonna happen if I like. Throw away the veil. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: When we look at the oz behind the curtain what's really gonna go down? And then the other thing that you really have to do when you recognize that somebody is being passive-aggressive with you, is to draw a boundary that is, that's gonna be uncomfortable typically.

There's some boundaries that are uncomfortable because you're scared that if I draw them, I'll get attacked. In this uncomfortable boundary is typically I'm gonna draw it and they're gonna deny it, which is like very gaslighting. Gaslighting, another form of passive aggression, by the way or sometimes it's directly aggressive, but Yeah. 

Brett: Yeah. Interesting. 

Joe: And so I'm gonna get gaslit, so that's another thing. Yeah. 

Brett: Yeah. So you talked about the veil. 

Joe: Yeah. Yeah. 

Brett: And that makes me just wonder like what is the adaptive like purpose or function of passive aggression? How does it develop?

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: How do we develop passive aggression, passive-aggressive tendencies? What makes that serve us in any way? 

Joe: Yeah. So I don't know about serve, that's a good question. What I know is how they come to passive. So typically what happens is somebody isn't allowed to be aggressive in a home, right?

So if I'm aggressive, if I get angry, they're gonna get even angrier and, or it doesn't work. Like with my daughter and her sister, my other daughter, one day I was like you're crying, but you look like you're angry. I'm sure I've told this story before and she's, I'm like, how often are you actually, angry when you look sad, she said 50% of the time. I was like, huh? Why? She's because if I get angry at my sister, she just hits me. But if I get sad at my sister, she does what I want her to do. Which is, by the way, another form of passive aggression. Getting sad at people, getting scared at people.

Those are great forms of passive aggression where I'm basically trying to manipulate you through my emotional experience. But at the same time, I'm the victim. I'm the one that's hurt. It's an adaptive behavior because that aggression has to go somewhere. We're like born with a certain amount of aggression. We're born with a certain amount of anger, or life is gonna throw stuff at us that's gonna make us angry. That's just the nature of life and the nature of being human. And so if you don't get to have that temper tantrum, if you don't get to have that anger, if you girls, good girls, don't get angry, don't yell, then it's gonna be more and more passive aggression. 

And watching girls of certain cultures that's in seventh grade, it's really fucking apparent that they weren't allowed to be aggressive. And so there's this crazy amount of passive aggression, of talking behind each other's back and gossiping, of making people feel small in all these subtle ways. It's all very aggressive behavior.

And it's weird because boys, they'll hit each other. It just, I'm not saying I'm not supporting that kind of bullying, but passive aggressive, it's just as destructive, just as bullying. It's just, we don't, we as a society don't like to look at it and go, oh that's equally not acceptable. 

Brett: Or equally aggressive even. 

Joe: Or equally aggressive, or equally as damaging. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: Because we really buy into that the victim story of, and including the victim, of, oh I'm the one that's hurt. I'm stuck. 

Brett: Yeah. So how does passive aggression show up in like personal relationships and work relationships? Like over time, like we're talking about right now, atomic instances, moments of passive aggression. How about like how it builds and affects a marriage over 20 years? Or a work culture? 

Joe: Fucking kills it, kills both of them. I think it's far easier to get a functional work or marriage out of aggression than it is out of passive aggression. So it's usually why when we are talking to people, we're like, oh, hey, can you make that passive aggression into aggressive?

That's the reason is because once you actually see the problem and everybody can acknowledge the problem, then it's easier to fix. 

So typically somebody feels like they can't be aggressive with their wants, they can't get angry, and so, another person in the relationship feels like they can be aggressive with their wants.

The first person gets resentful and so they start doing all these passive aggressive things in response to the person getting their needs met or whatever it is. And so there's just like this undermining thing that happens. A great example of this is that so I know this couple that's been married for, oh gosh, 20 years or some, something like that. And the man in the couple, the woman is like the powerhouse and the man, isn't getting his needs or wants met. And so whatever the woman wants, he just doesn't do it. He says he is gonna do it, but he doesn't like, hey, there's that broken down car in the front and it's yeah, I'll take care of it. And then two weeks later, nothing's been taken care of and she's like starting to get angry, like, why aren't you taking care of the thing? And he's I can do it. But now I feel really bad. I feel horrible because like I should do it and I'm not doing it. And so now I feel really bad and then the woman's I can't even tell him like that he hasn't done his thing because now he goes into a depression and I've lost my husband and the connection, which is more passive aggression, for whatever, two weeks, 'cause now he's in a depression. And by the way, the car still hasn't fucking moved. So now I can't even complain about it and I can't ask for it to be moved because otherwise I'm going to suffer all this shit.

So she starts getting resentful and then he's resentment. So there's just this massive resentment that happens and then everybody gets scared to actually ask for what they want because there's all this passive aggression that's occurring. And so it basically stagnates like the ability to express what you want and need and therefore it stagnates the marriage or the business. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: Oh, I can't say that. Like we were just at that company that I won't mention the name of, but everybody felt like they had to be nice. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: And so nobody could say things like, the company's in fucking trouble and we have to do a better job. We have to be A players if we're gonna keep our jobs.

Because that would be seen as that's not nice. That's not a nice thing to say. Crazy. So that's what it does. In a relationship, if you see a very slow decline with everybody trying to like, smooth over and walk on eggshells, there's just like a shit ton of passive aggression going on in the relationship.

Brett: Yeah. One thing I heard there in, in that story or just in, in that overall description of how this plays out is that there's a step in there that often happens where there's like a withdrawal of love. I'm just gonna withdraw. And that could be, I'm gonna withdraw from the resentment or the passive aggression, but it could also be its own form of passive aggression. Fine, that kind. And so I'm curious to go into a little bit more deeply, what are some of the ways that people tend to respond to passive aggression that feed the cycle? 

Joe: Yeah, that's great. I love what you just said about like the withdrawal of love. So just to speak about that for a second before we get into the question. What's amazing to me is that if we withdraw love, it hurts us. Like it's a way in which we are cutting off love from ourselves, right? So when we are open to love, if we're loving somebody else, not caretaking, but loving somebody, actually loving somebody else, the love equally comes to us and through us and to them cutting it off, you're cutting off that love. It's really quite a painful experience. Once you really realize what it's like to live with an open heart, to close it just sucks. And so we're doing one of the main forms of passive aggression, and it's a great like metaphor for the whole thing is to cut off love from another person. Oh, I'm going to withhold my love from you until you do what I want, or just to punish you, or just vindictiveness. But oftentimes when it's happening, you feel it as I'm protecting myself. You don't feel it as I am trying to hurt this other person. 

The other person might feel it. And even if they don't say it, they might feel guilty, but they felt that withdrawal. They felt like they've done something wrong. And so it's just this very interesting thing where sometimes that passive aggression is consciously known and sometimes it is not. It is, no, I'm just protecting myself. 

So that's just an interesting thing about it. So onto your question, which was, can you remind me? 

Brett: Yeah, just you answered it pretty well there, but maybe there's more ways.

What are some of the ways that people tend to respond to passive-aggressive behavior? That tend to spin it, spiral it out of proportion even more deeply? 

Joe: Yeah. So there's, it's the same way that people react to aggressive behavior. So some people walk on eggshells.

Oh my gosh. I don't do that or I'll break 'em. Oh my gosh. And so they hold back their truth as a way to not break the situation or not break the person, or not create a response, not create the depression, not create whatever. So there's like this tentativeness. That's how some people react to aggression.

Oh, I gotta worry about this person getting angry. The other way is the other way people respond to anger, which is more fucking anger, right? Which is the relationship that my dad had with my mom, which was he would feel bad about it. He would be like, oh shit. Like I shouldn't be yelling. And she was like, yeah, you shouldn't be yelling.

But she was also provoking the thing and not being able to own it, which is one of the things that's really interesting. If you look at the golden algorithm of passive aggression, oftentimes somebody learned to be passive-aggressive 'cause they couldn't be aggressive. Somebody was more aggressive than them.

And so their passive aggression is the thing that's creating the emotion that they're trying to avoid, which is someone attacking them. That feeling of, oh my God, I'm scared. Somebody's attacking me. Their passive aggression is creating it. So there's this beautiful golden algorithm, 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: To passive-aggression often to create that aggressive experience in return.

Brett: And for those, just listening to this and haven't heard that episode, there's an episode on the Golden algorithm that goes really deeply into how the thing we're avoiding recreates, the feeling we're avoiding and exactly the way we avoid it. 

Joe: Yeah. So those are the two ways, they either walk on eggshells or they get aggressive back and that makes them worse. That's what makes the passive aggression get even worse. It fuels the fire.

Brett: Yeah. And there's another one that you mentioned in there. I don't know if this is another category of thing, but you mentioned sometimes people will go into shame and like, how can going into shame be a form of passive aggression? Okay, look, now you've lost me, I'm collapsing see now you've done wrong and you've gotta fix this. 

Joe: So again, yes. I was talking to a client the other day. His moms came over from Europe too to help take care of their kid and it was like everything was I'm being put upon. And he was very much actively trying to say, hey, it really hurts when you criticize the way we're taking care of the kid.

Oh, am I not allowed to say my piece? Am I not allowed to like, share my opinion? Fine. If I'm not allowed to share my opinion, I won't share my opinion here. It's that kind of whatever thing he asked for she wasn't aggressive don't tell me how to behave. She was basically making everything an oppression, right?

So that she could maintain this thing. And I was, I said, hey, try this one out for a minute. Just every time she criticizes, say Ouch. And at first it was like, hey I didn't hurt you. And he would say, yeah, but it hurt. So I'm saying, ouch. Eventually, like she couldn't be in the position of passive aggression anymore because every time he said Ouch.

So it became really clear who was being hurt in that moment. But she really fought for a while. No, you can't take, I'm the hurt one. I'm like, you can't take that from me. You can't take the hurt one from me. That's me. And so that's often like the story of passive aggression, is that when the person who's being passive aggressive doesn't want to have the role of I'm the hurt one taken away. Or I'm the non-aggressor. 

Brett: Yeah. And then I'm also noticing how could somebody say ouch in a passive-aggressive way? Oh, you hurt me. Versus ouch, that hurt. 

Joe: Yeah. So the difference there is are you empowered?

Do you feel empowered? Are you clear that you're making a choice and that you're not stuck? 

So generally if we're in the fear triangle and we have an episode on that, if you're in the fear triangle, if you're in the bully, you're not being passive aggressive, but if you're in the victim, you're almost, all of your aggression is passive aggression.

And so if you feel like you're stuck, you feel like you have no choice you're just blaming somebody else internally, blaming somebody else for your situation. I guarantee you're being passive-aggressive in some way. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: Or if you're not, you're going to be in the next, day. Like that's the way it works, is if you feel stuck and you're blaming, then that is, even the blame is a form of passive aggression. Because you're blaming somebody for your situation that you have full choice in. 

Brett: Yeah. So this kinda leads into the next question, which it's somewhat natural now, is to ask what could somebody do differently than what we've just previously described as the things that tend to invite more passive aggression?

And now I want to kinda maybe tweak the questions, maybe not what people do differently, but it's how do they be? It's maybe even the question is how do we own our own aggression, our own empowerment in such a way that we respond to passive aggression in a way that diffuses the dynamic and what are some of the ways that might look?

Joe: Yeah. So I think the first, the most important thing is that you like don't meet aggression with aggression typically. Occasionally, you need to, but typically meeting aggression with aggression leads to a power dynamic, so leads to more fear triangle. One, the most common form of aggression that you would have is that I want to change you. So trying to change the person's passive aggression is you're like, it's, you're entering the dynamic with them. 

Either by, I am gonna be angry at you to change you, or I'm gonna walk on eggshells to change you, or I'm gonna try to convince you to change you, anything like that.

That's really the dynamic. And so the way to undo it is to not try to change them, but you can own your own experience. So one of the ways to do that is ouch, that hurt. One of the ways to do that is to draw a boundary oh, I'm not really interested in being guilt tripped. One of the ways to do that is just own what's happening.

Oh, hey, that feels like you're guilt-tripping me. What would make you guilt trip me right now? Be in view, any of those things. Again, it's really easy to make any of those things passive-aggressive. So the only way to do it is to really be in touch with your own empowerment, which is I think, the most critical piece, which is you are making a choice to avoid a certain consequence and to own that choice.

Like you don't get to control the consequences, but you get to control the choices that you make. And so to really own that you're making that choice, I think is a really good first step internal step to changing a passive-aggressive dynamic. 

Also boundaries are just really good. Oh, I don't want to be criticized. And the response might be like, I'm not criticizing you. Am I not allowed to say what I want? Oh, you're welcome to say what you want. And when I feel criticized, I am going to walk away, or I am going to say ouch, or I am going to tell you that I feel criticized so you can act accordingly, whatever it is that your reaction's gonna be.

So I think boundaries is a really good one. Just like any form of anger at you or sadness at you, fear, I think boundaries is a really good, is a really good choice. And just owning it and just saying what it is out loud, I think is really important. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: If you're in the dynamic of receiving passive aggression.

If you're in the dynamic of giving passive aggression, then there's other things that you might want to be doing. But receiving it, it's you don't enter the dynamic and you don't accept someone being aggressive with you or trying to change you by force. 

Brett: Yeah. And what I'm noticing here is that on either side of the dynamic, there is some form of unknown aggression in a lot of the cases we've just described.

So if you think you're receiving passive aggression how do you know? If someone's listening to this and they're like, oh, I'm surrounded by passive aggression. 

Joe: Yes. Yeah. 

Brett: How do you know if it's actually you're receiving it or you're the source of it and you're projecting it and creating it?

Joe: If you're triggered by it, then you're at least part of the source of it. Yeah. Definitely if you're triggered by passive aggression, that means that there's some part of your own passive aggression, and particularly maybe just towards yourself. Maybe it is just the voice in your head that you're not owning and not loving and not saying, oh, why I really want this. I really like desire this. I want it the world to be this way, and that's okay. Giving yourself that recognition that you're at choice. And so that's not happening and you're not loving that aspect of yourself, typically. If you're surrounded by passive aggression, you're like, oh, check that out, and you're not triggered by it, then you're not the source.

I don't mean that in a disassociated way either. There's some people who are like, there's some people who are like, I am not bothered at all by all of this passive aggression. That's not what I'm talking about. Then you're probably very much being passive-aggressive.

Brett: Yeah. So you mentioned something really interesting there about internal, like it might just be with yourself. How would you recognize if you are being passive-aggressive with yourself? 

Joe: Oh man. There's so many ways that we're passive-aggressive with ourself. One of my favorites, this is gonna bother a lot of people, but one of my favorites is the, like super helpful coach self-talk.

It's you can do it, everything's great. Yeah. And you're like, one part of you is oh man, this day's crap. Turn that frown upside down says that. It's like you're basically saying, you're not allowed to feel this way. I need you to feel this way. That's a form of aggression. But you're not, you're doing it in the form of Hey, I'm this really good friend. He is a happy coach, and we've all seen the dozens of movies about somebody who's like really trying to live like that for 20 years. And then goes into this deep dark hole and those movies are made 'cause there's a reality to that. So the passive aggressive usually ends up just like in a relationship into some fucking explosion. I don't know why, we seemed happy and then he just left after 20 years, or she just left like there's a lot of passive aggression going on in those relationships.

So similarly in the head. That's one form. Another way that we can be passive-aggressive is that if you look at the way the voice in the head typically works, and it's different for everybody in this, but there's often a bully, which is you gotta lose weight. You gotta work harder, you gotta make more friends. You're 40 years old and you don't own a house yet. Whatever the thing the bully is saying. And then there's the other side of it, which is yeah, I'm gonna get right to that or, oh yeah, no, that's never gonna work. I'm never gonna change. This is never gonna happen. The part of the internal dialogue that goes, oh, I just saw that thing. How do I make it stay? That's like passive aggression. That's it's an undermining, it's a saying that you can't, it's not gonna work. It's like that little, yeah, this is never gonna work. That part of your voice in your head also can be incredibly passive-aggressive. 

Brett: Yeah. I'm also like wondering how many, I'm just curious like how many people listening to this right now are like, oh yeah, all the passive aggression I see out there that's triggering me. This is like really good fodder for my own growth. And then once I've done all that growth and I'm no longer triggered by it, everything will change and I will have fixed all of the passive aggression around me in the world. And I'm wondering like, what do you see in there? 

Joe: Yeah, you're not wrong. There's truth to that. And it's a very slow, inefficient path. Do all that great. Fantastic. And draw boundaries and see what it's like to hold a boundary to the aggression. So the thing about it is when we allow ourselves to be aggressive to ourselves, and we allow almost in kind other people to be that aggressive with us. We expect it. And it's okay. Of course, we're living with it every day. Why would we think it's not okay? As we learn to love ourselves, as we say no, that kind of self-talk, that kind of internal relationship is not okay. I'm not living with that. Then we're not gonna accept it from the outside world. Vice versa, if we say, Hey, I'm not gonna accept that past, I'm not accepting guilt trips from you, Mom, anymore. It's not happening. I love you. I wanna interact with you. I care about you, but when you do guilt trips, I am going to leave or I am going to say, Mom, please don't do a guilt trip on me and I'll just keep on repeating it until you stop, whatever I'm gonna do. When I say that I'm sending a very strong signal to the voice in my head that I'm not doing that. This is unacceptable. So both ways work and so to do them both at the same time is a far more efficient path than to do it, I'm gonna fix it all on myself and then go out into the outside world and be, happy and everybody's gonna not be passive aggressive with me. Because the truth is, if you're interacting with people, they're gonna be passive-aggressive with you and you're gonna be triggered by it or not be triggered by it, interact with it or not interact with it. Those are all the choices that you have. 

Brett: So let's say somebody who's done a lot of this work and they're recognizing the way that they've been triggered by passive aggression, and then they work through that trigger and naturally they're gonna start to see it wherever it is.

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: And they might find themselves swimming in a culture where passive aggression is a norm. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: And this could be any culture in different ways. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: Not to call out any particular culture. So what, you know what happens when a person finds themselves just swimming in it? 

Joe: Yeah. First I just noticed that so there's being kind because you have an open heart and you wanna be kind, and then there's like being polite and being nice, and I notice the more nice and polite a culture is oftentimes the more passive aggression is built in. There's like a kind of a built in like that very nice, everybody's very nice to us in this neighborhood and da. That's the neighborhood where there's gonna be a shit ton of gossip. That's the neighborhood where there's gonna be a lot of people talking about each other behind their back.

And whereas cultures where that isn't there's no expectation of civility, niceness, like in that way, if it's not heartfelt. It's yeah, it's totally okay to say God damnit that I'm upset with you. Then there's gonna be like less passive aggression. Then the place where passive aggression in those societies are gonna, as if someone's like a bully yeller, there's gonna be the per the person on the other side of the fear triangle, like the victim who's gonna fall into that passive aggression.

So that's typically where you'll see it in a society. What do you do in that society is interesting, right? So the other day Tara and I were sitting at this coffee shop and we were just like, we had a long day and we were just spacing out and there was a couple sitting near us and they walked out and I heard them say, oh my God, that was so rude.

What makes them think they could do that? Or something like that. And I was like, oh, wow. They're speaking about us. 'cause we were just staring out in the air, but we were staring in their direction and so they felt wash. And I totally appreciate how I could see someone going, yeah that's rude.

But that's that's one of those, oh, this is a societal norm that. We have a contract in our little part of society that's not okay. There's other parts of society where people are like, yeah, staring at somebody's not a problem. That's what you do if you're just hanging out together.

So it's just like the more of those kind of like norms, the more of that like setup where this is what I can do and this is what I can't do. And it gets more and more complicated often, you're gonna get more passive aggression. If you don't want to do that, then you have to feel like you're not actually obligated to those norms, which is really scary.

And it reminds me of this story, I think it's a Buddhist story, but it's similar to Jesus, going out into the desert and getting like the three temptations. I believe that Mara, I can't remember, had three temptations for Buddha. And one of the temptations was like societal norms. Like the temptation is what will society think of you, like your reputation in society? And so you can't believe those things if you're going to, you can believe oh, if I hurt somebody, that's not okay, that's moral, but if it's just like these arbitrary rules that have been set up so that people can stay comfortable. If you feel those, then you're gonna, you're bound to be more and more passive-aggressive and be caught up in it. If you cannot, if you can see through those things, you can say, oh, like that's a choice that I can make, but it's a choice I get to make and I'm not a bad person because I'm not doing what this particular part of society wants me to do, then there's less of a chance of you falling into the passive aggressive behavior. At the same time, you're probably, if you're in a passive-aggressive society, you're gonna receive a certain amount of that. And that's gonna trigger you until it doesn't, until you can see through that, until you're not that way with yourself or you're gonna say, I don't wanna live in that kind of a society, which I think a ton of people do. I think our cities are full of young people who are like, I don't wanna live in that fucking passive aggressive society in the Midwest or in the South, or in fucking Modesto, whatever. I don't wanna live in that and so they come to a place where they hope that they can find more freedom and make their own social norms. 

Brett: So I wanna go back and double click a little bit on how we opened the episode with taking passive aggression and making it active. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: And I'm curious what do you mean when you invite people into turning their passive aggression into active aggression and what are some of the guardrails around that?

Within, whether it's in a course or in coaching or maybe somebody in a relationship when they're realizing someone's being passive aggressive with them and it's a partner and they're just like, Hey, you know what I welcome your aggression. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: What are some ways to have that not go totally sideways or at least welcome the dumpster fire?

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: In a healthy way. 

Joe: So what I would say is that our rule is, rule of thumb is that we don't get angry at somebody. So that doesn't matter if it's aggressive anger or passive-aggressive anger, like we don't get angry at somebody without permission. And so you want to get permission, so we'll, and if we're facilitating somebody and we're getting paid to help somebody work with this stuff. We'll be like, Hey, that's passive. Let's make it aggressive and invite them into experiencing that. You don't need to do it at anybody. You can just do it. You can just get into a room and move the anger that's underneath the passive aggression, and that's gonna be your most effective way to reduce the amount of passive aggression.

Also the other thing is to really admit that it's passive aggression is really useful. Here's all the things that I do when I wanna get my way and I'm not directly asking for it. Write them all down and those are all passive aggression, all forms of passive aggression that you can look at.

So admitting it to yourself is a really important thing. Moving the anger outwardly, but not at anybody is great. If somebody wants to give you permission, fantastic. If they do it is very tentative. It's very risky, especially if it's in a long-term relationship. There can be a lot of re-traumatization and damage. So I really recommend if you're gonna do that, at least the first couple times, do it with a professional. And also if you're going to do that at any time the person wants to stop, you stop. So that somebody can actually feel like they're in control, that they're not just being yelled at and retraumatizing themselves.

So that's another thing I think. Also just recognizing that you have choice and you can ask for what you want. A lot of passive aggression stops when somebody feels like, oh, I can just ask for what I want. And typically it's gonna be like, oh, I can't ask for what I want because he's not gonna say yes anyways or I can't ask for what I want because then the marriage might fail. There's gonna always be some reason that you're stuck on the other side of it and it's gonna seem really real. But that's a choice you're making and you have to recognize oh, I'm choosing not to ask for what I want because this is the trade that I'm making for that.

And until it feels empowered, until you can't blame anybody and you don't feel stuck that it's a choice, then it's gonna continue to be passive aggression. 

So those are the, those are some of the things that you can do to really start loosening up your own passive aggression, passive aggressive actions.

Also, drawing boundaries is fantastic if you're being passive-aggressive. Often, I was like my mom, when we had this conversation about, how she was making it so people wanted to yell at her. Earlier we had talked about my dad, if you want my dad to stop yelling at you, it's real easy. You just say, Hey, when you yell at me, I'm gonna leave. My dad couldn't have lived without my mom. He would like, so all she had to do was just like walk out of the house for three hours every time he yelled at her, and it would've been done in a couple, three weeks. And so it's like drawing that boundary is a really, asking for what you want, drawing the boundary those are the skills to stop the passive aggression. 

Brett: Yeah. I'm also curious for whoever's listening to this and they're like, oh, that make the passive aggression active. That's a great idea. And then they want to go to their spouse and be like, hey, you're being passive-aggressive, make it active. Or they go to their team and they're like, okay, enough of this passive aggression. Bring it. And that's part of my question there is what is the guidance or the. 

Joe: Don't do that. 

Brett: I don't know the warning 

Joe: Yeah. My guidance is don't fucking do that. Like you're trying to change somebody else. You're doing the same thing they're doing just in a different way. It's the same, it's the same habit. It's the same pattern, just be recreating itself. It's not your job. If you want to be in a loving relationship, love the person and yourself the way that you are, and don't be trying to change them.

And so that whole, you should do this, that's you trying to manipulate them. Now you can invite them to it and say, hey, I noticed this kind of thing is happening. How would you feel? Let's listen to this podcast together. But it's, if you're in there trying to change them to be different so that you can be happy, then you're as much in the fear triangle as they are. Which by the way, is the other thing that you can do around passive aggression is really look at the fear and sit in the fear that's underneath the aggression. It's not always there, but often there's some fear.

Brett: And so that's one end of the spectrum is that you're being passive-aggressive, make it active. Another end of the spectrum might just be like, hey, I notice like, what it appears to me is passive aggression and actually I'm here for it. I welcome your anger. I'm curious any tips or guidance if that's the way you're feeling in a situation?

Joe: Yeah. I think if you're feeling that way, that's great as long as you can not feel obligated to do that and be able to say, stop when you need it to stop. But yeah, if you're like, I'm feeling what's happening right now as passive aggression and I just want you to know, I'm totally happy to hear what you want. I'm happy to hear your anger. I'm happy to hear the boundary that you might have. Sounds fantastic. 

Brett: Awesome. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: And I'd love to leave listeners with an experiment until they hear our next episode. What's an experiment somebody could bring into their life to either notice or bring, just bring this more into awareness in the world?

Joe: Yeah. Write down a list of all the people that you subtly blame and for what. So just go, okay, here's a list of all the people I subtly blame and for what. And then when you've made that list. Find out how you're being aggressive to them. Here's the ways that I'm being aggressive.

And so it can either be passive or direct, or both, or it could be many, but just like notice that wherever there's that blame, there's some form of aggression that's happening and write it down. And that'll really help you see it more clearly when it's happening. It'll also help you get in touch with oh, I'm blaming somebody.

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: Like they're hurting me and they need to stop, like that. You'll get to and you'll start feeling that right away, which is really the root of that is to really be able to be in contact when you're blaming somebody else. 

Brett: Awesome. 

Joe: Cool. 

Brett: Thank you, Joe. I'm gonna leave with that. 

Joe: Oh wait, I have one more.

I have another one. We have the upright apology episode, and I think we have something on the website on apologies and under the experiments part of the website. But the other thing you can do is, and very powerful, is to do an upright, not a regular, but an upright apology for all the places that you've been passive aggressive.

So I know if you probably make 20 apologies for passive aggression, you're, the amount of passive aggression that you're gonna be doing in the world will probably decrease by at least 30 or 40%. 

Brett: As long as it's not a passive-aggressive apology. 

Joe: Upright apology. that's right. I'm sorry that you made me get angry at you the other day. I'm sorry that you made me guilt-trip you. There's just no other way to do it.

Brett: I'm sorry I put up with your bullshit.

Joe: Oh my gosh. It just goes to prove like you can take any recognition and weaponize it. 

Brett: Yeah, indeed. 

Joe: Awesome. 

Brett: Yeah. Thank you, Joe. 

Joe: What a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. 

Brett: Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe and rate us on your podcast app.

We'd love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions or comments. You can reach out to us, join our newsletter, or check out our courses at artofaccomplishment.com.

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