We Read Your Comments on Narcissism

Brett: We released an episode a few weeks ago on narcissism. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: And we're gonna start doing some episodes where we engage with the audience on YouTube. We get a lot of comments on our videos. There's a lot of opinions, a lot of perspectives, and some strong feelings. 

Joe: Had a lot of people, yeah, going in both directions, yeah. 

Brett: So let's start out with the first one. This is from TheOrdinarySacred6664. 

Joe: That's such a nice name, TheOrdinarySacred. That's lovely. Such a lovely name. 

Brett: Followed by 666. 

Joe: Yeah. Oh, wait. I didn't catch that. Now it's awkward. Okay. 

Brett: This person says, "Saying that a person on the receiving end of narcissistic abuse is responsible for holding a container of safety for the narcissist is not only unreasonable, but also fuels the dynamic."

If I had to guess where it came from, I asked you the question in the episode of how do you work with somebody who's, like, deeply on the narcissistic spectrum. 

Joe: Yeah, yeah. 

Brett: And that might have come with an assumption that you have to. Your response to it was, "You don't have to." 

Joe: Yeah. First of all, whoever wrote this is like, my guess is that they've been hurt by a narcissist, and so I wanna empathize with that, like, that fucking sucks. I mean, my childhood was very much like that, you know? And, so I wanna, I wanna just say, like, y- The, the, I think the thing I would say is, like, "Hey, it's not, it's not your fault that happened. You didn't deserve it, and you don't have to take care of the person." And I feel like that oftentimes in the process what happens is that it's like when you're dealing with somebody who's abusing you, whether it's a narcissistic abuse or any kind of abuse, the first thing that most people do is go, "Oh, I did something wrong."

And they're constantly trying to fix by fixing themselves, and then the next move is, "You did something wrong." And those are natural processes, but the healing is kind of moving away from anybody did anything wrong, even though everybody made mistakes, even though everybody acted in a way that wasn't best for everybody around them.

It's like getting to the place of, like, seeing that everybody's hurting, and it is often where the relief and where the healing comes. But that comes in time if you've done a lot of work. You know, for me, I had to really blame my father for over a decade to get to any kind of place where I could see the humanity behind the abuse.

Brett: Yeah, I can imagine that for somebody with a lot of empathy, not necessarily in the way that we define it, which is being with yourself and with another but for a lot of sensitivity if I allow myself to see the way that the other person's hurting or hasn't done something wrong even though I'm hurt, and it's been really, really harmful to me, it can be really difficult to step away from the dynamic if I see that. If I allow myself to see that they're hurting, my pattern might be to go try to console or say or…

Joe: Sometimes impossible, right?

Brett: Right. 

Joe: It's really important to be able to say, "This isn't my problem. My job isn't to fix them." 

Brett: Yeah, and if the only way to get to that place is to blame them, that's actually a really useful step. 

Joe: Yeah. You know, I spent a lot of time in Al-Anon, which is, people who live with significant others of alcoholics. My dad was, as I think most people know, alcoholic and, abusive and, and, like the whole part of that program, the whole program is kinda designed for you to see that you can't take care of that person. Like, that's the healing. The healing is that you are trying to manage the other person, that you're trying to fix the other person, and that you can't do it.

And that's the whole healing process of it. And, so yeah, I couldn't agree more that it's totally necessary. And it only really works, that's the more interesting part, is that it only really works if it's like a conscious choice, meaning you can say yes, you can say no, and you choose to say yes because it's something for you, not for them.

'Cause there's something in you that needs to heal, or there's something in you that needs to know that you can hold space and not be abused. It can't be done for them and work even. 

Brett: I think there's also another aspect to this question which is that, and for context, in a lot of what we were describing in that episode, we're speaking from the role of being in facilitation or coaching.

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: You told a story about working with a CEO with a lot of narcissism. And so a lot of what we were describing is, like, really how to work with somebody. If you're an executive and you have another executive who's in this role, you work for them, and you are choosing to engage in that. If you are, if you're a yes for engaging with that, which is a very important piece, then a lot of what we described is relevant for you. It might not be relevant for the 12-year-old being abused by their dad, by their alcoholic dad. Relevant for learning, relevant for healing, but not necessarily... this isn't a script. None of what we talked about is like, "You should be doing this or else you're fucking up."

Joe: Yeah, I mean, that's actually the trap of the narcissist, right? It's like, so the person who's trapped by a narcissist believes that they're doing something wrong. 

Brett: Mm-hmm. 

Joe: Now, if you don't believe you're doing something wrong, then the... it's very hard to be trapped by a narcissist. And so somebody could say, "Hey, here's an option," and then you feel like, "Oh, I have to do that. If not, I'm wrong." If you feel trapped by a narcissist, the biggest thing for you to realize is that you're not wrong and you're not responsible for them. But I would also, in a weird way, say that the biggest issue in a narcissist is that when they get angry and abusive, they think they're wrong. Like, it's their shame that's, that's creating that. 

Brett: And becomes a big game of shame ball. 

Joe: Yeah. And I'm not making an excuse either way, it's just what it is that fuels it. 

Brett: All right, let's move on to the next comment. This is from kisumuflavour. 

Joe: Kisumuflavour. I love these names.

Brett: This person says, "This is the most complete and accurate picture of narcissistic relationship dynamics that I've ever seen. It's coming in handy as I'm building a relationship with my mother back up, and I'm wondering how to go about that part of her personality. Thank you." 

Joe: Wow. That's cool. 

Brett: Yeah. Well, thank you. That feels good. 

Joe: So the critical piece there is he's like, "I am trying to." Like, it is in him, and he wants to, and he's created enough separation to be able to do that. That's fantastic, and I would also say to him, like, "Hey, just make sure you're doing it 100% from your desire, not from some feeling of family obligation or because you have to."

Brett: Him or her, I can't tell. 

Joe: Him or her, yeah. It's interesting, you know, when I, I had to be able to you know, draw a really hard boundary with my parents because of the abuse, a lot of it verbal, and I had to say, "Hey, I'm just not coming around if you criticize me like this." You know? And they didn't call me for a year and a half or something like that.

And that was a really critical piece both for being able to heal it when we did get back together and interact, but for me to realize that I could say no, you know, and I think that a huge part of if you are gonna engage with a narcissistic mother or father again is you have to be 100% clear that you can say no, and it's great to say no, and you didn't do anything wrong if you say no. And if they get mad at you, that's even better. Like, you have to get to the point of just be like, "This is fantastic what I'm doing." 

Brett: Yeah.

Joe: And it doesn't start that way, but that really, really helps. Yeah. it starts scary. It starts like you're gonna lose love. 

Brett: And one of the operative words in this quote is rebuild, rebuild the relationship. That means that there actually has been that differentiation point. There has been, on some level, the grieving the end of the relationship, grieving the end of the dynamic as it was and there's been a healing process to get to the point where, you know what, I actually still wanna have a relationship with my mother. Who doesn't? 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: And if she's the way that she is, how do I wanna relate to that in a way that feels good to me and gets me the love that I want with my mother, and now it's not from within the dynamic. 

Joe: The only thing I'd say is get me the love that I want. That, you can't control that, but yeah. 

Brett: Yeah, maybe the better word is love the way that I want to. 

Joe: Yeah. exactly. How do I have the relationship with my mom the way I wanna have a relationship with my mom that doesn't count on her being any particular way, you know? Like, if you want someone to be different, you're not loving them.

Brett: And if you're going from step A to step C, from deeply within the dynamic to I wanna love them the way that I wanna love them, you might be skipping a step. And this is where the wisdom, I think, in a lot of the comments here that are like, "Wait a minute. No, it's harmful to tell people to..." And I think it actually can be harmful for somebody to receive from what we said that they should go straight from within a dynamic to the empathy in a way that's like turning away from themselves and their truth and their boundaries. 

Joe: Yeah. I would say any love that makes you feel ashamed or makes you turn away from yourself is not a love that you wanna keep. You know? You wanna not believe the shame, not turn away from yourself, and if the love goes away, then the love's gotta go away. It's not love anyway. 

Brett: All right. Well, thank you, kisumuflavour. Moving on to the next one. This is from a username ReturnToCinda. 

Joe: That's a good name too.

Brett: She says, "I really, really hate that they lump narcs, narcissists in with everybody 'cause, quote, 'We all think we're better than at some point.' This is just adding to the delusion of the label. Narcissists are broken. There's no fixing them because they do not think there is anything wrong. They have zero feelings for their targets. None." All caps, "They are different. This is to me like saying all men are on the rapist spectrum. It's just inaccurate and gross, and I love everything else Joe has to say, so I'm not a Joe hater." What does that one bring up for you? 

Joe: Wow, it brings up a lot. There's a little ouch to it, for sure. There's also a noticing that the way she's talking, the way I'm reading what she's talking, there's kind of like a not treating them as human, which when I was there doing that with my dad, it hurt. You know? It was a lot of constriction, a lot of closed-heartedness that was required to do that, which is the pain of a narcissist. Not being able to feel it. So I see that. Also, I feel like, I would assume, but I don't know, but probably had a lot of pain put on them or abuse put on them by a narcissist in their life, and again, they didn't deserve it.

So yeah, I think as far as the whole idea of a spectrum, intellectually, I would say, there is such a thing as narcissistic personality disorder, and I'm absolutely not saying that everybody's on a spectrum of narcissistic personality disorder. I also have noticed that people can be on different extremes of narcissism and still be abusive. So there, I think, a big distinction between abusive and narcissistic. 

Brett: Mm. 

Joe: So there's a lot of like, semantics that we might be using different ways. Like, I might be using it one way, and she might be using it another way, but I would say that we all have narcissism, but we're not all narcissistic personality disorder people. But I think there's a good point saying, like, if you call it a spectrum, people can, you know, relieve themselves of it, you know, say, "Oh, well then, you know, I'm just on a spectrum." And they can, like, excuse a narcissist with personality disorder or abuse because we all have it. And so I wouldn't want anybody to do that. Yeah, just generally, and I think that the, the other piece is that seeing it as a spectrum, the relief in it is that it's easier to have empathy when you're ready, or maybe not even empathy, compassion when you're ready.

And able to draw the boundary more readily, right? When compassion happens, my experience is that the boundary also happens, right? Because you're out of, like, “I'm good or bad,” or “I've done something wrong, " or " They've done something wrong.” Really, from those places, it's really hard to draw a boundary, a boundary that works. You know, you can draw the boundary like, "You don't ever ba ba, ba, ba, ba, fuck off." Like, you can draw that boundary, but that actually just increases the likelihood that you're gonna get attacked. 

Brett: Yeah. And there's something in the comment that's a little bit paradoxical. It's the claiming that narcissism that narcissists have no empathy, have no feeling. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: And I don't know that that's the case. Like, that's actually rejecting the spectrum of human experience in a different way. And to steel man the thing a little bit we opened the episode by saying the term narcissist has been diluted a whole lot to just mean asshole.

And then we describe narcissism as on a spectrum. So the criticism that we're diluting it further is valid from one frame but also there's a different way where I think what we're trying to do here, at least what I'm trying to do, is be a lot more specific about what it is that we're describing as narcissism, so that it's not just a black and white that some people are and other people aren't. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: But as a famous philosopher who I can't remember once said, it cuts through the center of all of our hearts in a way that allows us to see and relate to one another. And to be honest, I don't know any psychological phenomenon that isn't somewhat spectrumy. This person brought up the example of rape, but I don't know, have you ever hugged somebody who wasn't fully consenting to it and not recognized that? There's a line between the psychological pattern that we have, and then there's, like, red lines that we draw as behavior that's, like, condoned in society, and I think those are sometimes different things. Or a line between abuse and talking over somebody. 

Joe: Yeah. I can see the point that they're making and... But the main piece is that I don't really subscribe to any... It's very dangerous to get to, like, there's us and other.

That, like, seems to create most of the damage in the world, there's white people, but you're not us because you're white, or you're not us because you're black, or you're not us because you're Russian, or you're not us because you're Ukrainian, or you're not us because you're American. I think that gets really dicey quick, justifies a lot of really abusive behavior. And so that's the other piece that I see, and I get their thought process. It makes sense to me. 

Brett: And I heard you say in response to this comment- 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: You see in the comment a lot of what they describe as narcissism. 

Joe: Yeah, yeah. 

Brett: What would you have to say to somebody who sees that as actually, like, victim-blaming the commenter?

Joe: I would say, yeah, if you make somebody inhuman, I'm gonna call it out no matter whether you've been victimized or not been victimized. Because it hurts you, and it hurts other people. It hurts the people around you. But mostly it hurts you. Yeah, and I'm sorry that you were victimized, and that sucks, and you didn't deserve it, and you also don't deserve the hard heart and the closed-off emotional reality that you are still being affected by because of the abuse. 

Brett: Mm. I just felt something soften in my body around that comment. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: And like, I have deeper compassion now for this person. There was a little bit of me being kind of tense, like "oh, we totally didn't hear anything you said, and now you're seeing us as..." blah, blah, blah. 

Joe: Right. Yeah. 

Brett: And there's just a deeper compassion hearing in that perspective. 

Joe: Yeah. And again, I think it's really necessary to go from, the first step seems to be I'm the problem, then this next step is you're the problem. And so if you're there, then you're there, and like, you're never gonna get full relief being there. You're never gonna get the full healing that you want being there, in my experience. Hatred doesn't lead to a life that most people wanna live. 

Brett: All right, and with that, thank you, Cinda.

Joe: Yeah. Thank you for the comment. Thanks for making sure that we saw both sides of it. 

Brett: And this next comment comes from ivlog3663, who says, "One of the most empathetic videos about that topic I have ever seen." Smiley face. 

Joe: Yeah. You know, it's interesting that comment is, like, it took me, like, 20 years of work to go from being abused by an alcoholic narcissist to being able to have empathy. It's not for the faint of heart. But, you know, I couldn't raise my children well without doing it. I couldn't be married well without doing it. I couldn't be a good leader of our company without doing it. But it's a lot of work. It's no joke. So the reason I say all that is because, like, again, I don't want people jumping to that.

Do the work you gotta do to get there naturally. Don't try to get there. Don't tell yourself, "I should be empathetic and compassionate." Allow that to happen as a natural consequence of you understanding yourself. Because in a weird way, you telling yourself that you should be empathetic and compassionate is just your own internal narcissist abusing you and telling you what the fuck you should be instead of loving you for what you are.

Brett: Awesome. Thank you, ivlog3663. And, moving on to the next one, this is from Blonde Channel. 

Joe: Blonde Channel. 

Brett: Blonde Channel says, "Seems like they're passively putting down females who use that phrase, and sometimes you do need to interact because you may be trapped in an abusive marriage with kids."

Yeah. And they may be reacting to the part of the video where you said, "You don't have to." When we started talking, 'cause I asked “How could you work with someone with a high level of narcissism in your life?" And you opened with a caveat, "You don't have to," which I hear as like, "Don't force yourself to." And maybe somebody heard from that, that like, "No, it's easy. You can just walk away." And it may be more complicated than that, for sure. 

Joe: Yeah. This one's hard for me. This personal one is hard for me. So as far as women go, I don't know. I was attacked by a narcissistic father. I'm a man, so And I, I don't see how it's a race or a sex or a gender or any part of identity. I've never seen any part of humanity that doesn't have narcissism in it. As far as the kids part, that's the part that's hard for me. The reason it's hard for me is because, the way it worked in my family was that my mom felt like she was the victim of my father.

And because she felt like a victim, she didn't stand up for me. She had her reasons. I'm sure finances were one of them. Stability, whole bunch of things. Need a full family to raise a kid. I think there's a lot of reasons. But she didn't defend me. She didn't say, "Hey, he doesn't deserve this." She didn't say, "Hey, it's not okay to do this."

I didn't have that, and I didn't have it because somebody played the victim, because somebody said, "Life is gonna be more difficult if I protect you, and I'm not willing to face that." But the other day, I was actually hanging out, I was getting tacos or something. I was talking to this lady, and she was in that situation with a kid, and she lived at a homeless shelter.

And we were talking about what it was like for her to live in a homeless shelter, 'cause she was, like, unwilling to allow her child to suffer the abuse that she had been suffering. And I just started crying when she was telling me the story, 'cause I was like, "Oh, wow, my mom had a lot more capacity than that," and she still didn't do it.

But I started crying, 'cause she was like, "Oh, wow, you sacrificed that much for your child." And that was, like, a big deal. Like, there is truth that there are some people who can't get out of it. You know, if you're a kid with a single parent and the parent is narcissistic and abusive, or you're in a jail cell with a narcissistic, abusive person running the prison or something, there's absolutely times that you can't get out of it.

I can't disagree. That's obviously true. But what I can say is that oftentimes the mentality of the person who's being victimized by the abuser is that, "I'm doing something wrong, I'm doing something wrong. I can't, I can't," when they actually can. And so I wanna absolutely agree with it, but you know, my mom and a lot of people like my mom feel like they can't when they actually can. I mean, the most hardcore story I have about this is that I had an aunt whose husband, you know, molested her daughter from a previous marriage, and she didn't leave him. As a matter of fact, when the daughter turned, I don't know, 16, she had a restraining order put against him, and so the mom kicked her out of the house because they couldn't be in the same house together.

And she had her reasons, too. She had her, "I can't leave him." That was her thing. So finding that line is really hard to do, especially if you feel like you're not capable, especially if you feel like you're doing something wrong. So absolutely, I wanna say that there are some people who can't get out of it. There's no doubt that's true, and it's often used as an excuse to allow a child to be abused and not protected. 

Brett: Yeah. And the leaving option just may not be psychologically available to you until you've felt the heartbreak, the grief. 

Joe: I'd say is not gonna be available to you until you let go of your own personal shame and self-abuse. Yeah. Just like the psychological option of the narcissist to stop being a narcissist isn't gonna be available to them until they actually stop believing their shame and stop thinking that somebody's harmed them and that other people are responsible for their happiness. It's just not gonna be possible.

Brett: All right. I wanna move on to the next one. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: This one comes from RocketBeats. 

Joe: RocketBeats? 

Brett: RocketBeats. 

Joe: Man, I gotta up my handle. What the hell? 

Brett: Generalizing narcissism like this is genuinely dangerous for people who have survived actual covert abuse. While it's absolutely true that this word gets thrown around way too much, this actually only invalidates the survivors even more. Equating the term of a narcissist to the modern slang for asshole completely invalidates the severe cognitive dissonance survivors go through way too much of already. 

Joe: Yeah, I think that there's a lot of truth to that. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the issues that I have is that the way that narcissism is thrown around today, with a lot of people just using it as a word to say that somebody's an asshole or diagnosing folks because they don't like them as a narcissist and like that, yeah, I think that's very true.

And I can see how it would be easy to say we're talking about it as an a spectrum could also invalidate it. But what I would say in response also is like, it's the abuse. To invalidate the abuse is the bigger issue. It's not to invalidate the word. Right? Having survived it and just to be clear, I wasn't physically hit a ton. It happened occasionally. But it was, like, you know, it was, like, yelling over, yelling at me over dinner for an hour and a half night after night after night for, months and months on end. The thing that I needed validated wasn't that my dad was a narcissist. The thing I needed validated was that I was abused, that it wasn't okay, and the fact that nobody stood in to defend me.

Nobody said, "This isn't okay. You don't deserve this." So I thought I deserved it. I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought I was bad. And so the thing I needed validated wasn't that my dad was an alcoholic, but what would've been really nice is to be validated in the fact that, like, "Hey, you're being abused, and this isn't okay." And I think that's the real thing to validate somebody for. Not to validate that the other person is, you know, a psychopath or a narcissist or an alcoholic or whatever. It's just not fucking okay. I don't think I would've cared if my dad was an alcoholic if someone just said, "It's not okay what he's doing to you and you don't deserve it." 

Brett: Yeah, I don't, I also don't want to invalidate the experience of somebody who is themselves being invalidated by having the label slapped onto them. You know, like if you are calling, if you're throwing around the word narcissist with all of the emotional charge that it's a bad person for anybody who you don't like, then- 

Joe: Or just one person that you don't like.

Brett: Or one person that you don't like, like that is a way of invalidating their experience. 

Joe: Yeah. Absolutely. 

Brett: And so I think there's something really beneficial for me in seeing narcissism as a trait in consciousness that all consciousness has, the hiding from its self-ness of not feeling one's feelings. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: Because then you can address the trait, including where it is concentrated strongly, and separate that from the abuse or the actions or the effects or the impacts that need to be dealt with on a different level. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: Like, I need to draw the boundary to protect myself from abuse in many cases, and also just to see where that's coming from, to see the way that I actually have that capacity in me, is incredibly freeing, and gives me a lot more options in terms of how I respond. 

Joe: Yeah, I think that's a cool response. Like, yeah, what I hear in that is some version of you get to say no just 'cause you don't want it, and you definitely get to say no because you don't wanna be abused. You do not need them to be a narcissist to say no. You don't need them to be anything to say no. You get to live the life that you want, period, end of discussion. So that, I think it's interesting, right? 'Cause it's like you don't have to other somebody to get your needs met. 

Brett: Yeah. That's a great way of putting it. 

Joe: Yeah. And I get it. It's hard to not other a narcissist. It's really hard. They make it very challenging.

Brett: Yeah.

Joe: As far as like somebody who has a narcissistic personality disorder. We're all narcissists, but yeah. 

Brett: Right. And as we described in the episode, the golden algorithm of the narcissist is to make themselves feel alone, in many cases.

Joe: Yeah. So the other thing that's true there is, like, the attack on the narcissism is a way to get the narcissistic attack, right? Like, that's the weird part. And that was a hard thing for me to learn, is like when I was going, "It's all my fault," I was getting attacked because I was agreeing to this whole thing that, yeah, there's something wrong with me. And then when I was like, "It's all your fault," Dad, alcoholic dad, then I was creating abuse, too. It was just another way of, like, staying engaged and staying in the battle of right and wrong and staying in the shame.

It wasn't until I could give up my shame and blame for him and the shame that I was outsourcing onto him, that I was projecting onto him, that the abuse could stop. That I could say, "No, I'm not doing this anymore, and if you wanna be around me, it's not gonna be with abuse." So it's a weird thing to say, but like, that kind of like hard-core, like, othering somebody is a way of promoting the attack. And you can see this in countries. You know, you can see this in people. You can see a country that's been abused starts othering the other, and then they create another abuse cycle. Like, you can just see it moving. 

Brett: It's also a way that you carry the abuse in you. 

Joe: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, you're not letting it go. You're not healing it. 

Brett: All right. Thank you, Rocket Beats. And moving on to our final one for this session. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: This is from AnthropomorphizedRock.

"For a long time, I considered myself a victim of narcissistic abuse. It took me years to recognize how I was perpetuating the abuse by aligning myself to the role of the victim. Being able to watch this and have a completely different perspective about what's happening in the field between us feels like a massive shift."

Joe: Well, that was the hope. That was the hope of doing the episode, was for that to happen. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the hope is also that somebody with that greater narcissistic tendency can see it and see themselves more clearly, and have some more empathy for themselves, and reduce their shame, and the same with somebody who's been victimized. That was the hope behind it. So that's cool. 

Brett: Yeah, it feels really good. 

Joe: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. 

Brett: Yeah, people having that recognition, and again, he said it took years. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: It wasn't like, "Oh, I saw a video on YouTube and everything shifted for me." Sometimes that happens. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: But also, like your situation with your alcoholic dad. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: You know, a lot of my childhood stuff has been unwinding very slowly over the years that we've been working together and years before that, and it just takes time. 

Joe: Yeah.

Brett: There's nowhere you need to be, I think, is one of the biggest lessons here or things that I'd wanna say to somebody, is there's nowhere you need to be right now. 

Joe: Yeah. I would say that, like, everything you're telling yourself you need to be is basically kind of your own narcissism abusing you. Like, if you're angry, be angry. 

Brett: I know better for myself than where I should be right now- 

Joe: Yeah, exactly ... 

Brett: than to feel what I'm feeling right now. 

Joe: Yeah ... we got to read these things. This is nice. It was cool to hang out with the audience in this way. 

Brett: Yeah. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Brett: Yeah. Thanks for commenting.

Thanks for engaging. We'd love to hear more of your thoughts, your perspectives, how things land for you, what you learn. Any revelations, curiosities, questions, wonders, just bring them to us in the comments, and we will be tracking those and occasionally throw out an episode like this. 

Joe: Awesome. All right. Thanks, Brett. 

Brett: All right. Thank you, Joe. Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment. You can learn more about our programs or join our newsletter at artofaccomplishment.com. If you liked this episode, leave us a review or share the show with a friend. See you next week.

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